Question: Is Southwest a superior advertiser?
Mar 30, 2011, 5:02 am
#1
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Question: Is Southwest a superior advertiser?
Question: Do the legacy airlines fail at letting the frequent flying public know the ways they are (in some instances) more flexible than WN's no change fee policy?
Flyertalk Southwest Flyers are some of the most informed Southwest Flyers.
Do most here understand when Southwest policy is better for them and when the legacy policy would cost them less money?
Should legacies advertise their same day change programs on TV? Or would that be a waste of money and effort? What about how legacies often do not require refare when you make changes to return date while WN always does a refare? Have legacies failed at letting frequent flyers know WN doesn't always have the less $$$ change policy?
Flyertalk Southwest Flyers are some of the most informed Southwest Flyers.
Do most here understand when Southwest policy is better for them and when the legacy policy would cost them less money?
Should legacies advertise their same day change programs on TV? Or would that be a waste of money and effort? What about how legacies often do not require refare when you make changes to return date while WN always does a refare? Have legacies failed at letting frequent flyers know WN doesn't always have the less $$$ change policy?
Mar 30, 2011, 10:19 am
#2
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Should legacies advertise their same day change programs on TV?
Mar 30, 2011, 12:11 pm
#3
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Well, there's the frequent flyers and there's the general public...
Frequent flyers tend to know the program rules better than the general public...no need to advertise on TV.
The general public tend to not make same-day changes but they like to be able to move dates around...they also like to watch TV.
Frequent flyers tend to know the program rules better than the general public...no need to advertise on TV.
The general public tend to not make same-day changes but they like to be able to move dates around...they also like to watch TV.
Mar 30, 2011, 1:01 pm
#4
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[B]Should legacies advertise their same day change programs on TV? Or would that be a waste of money and effort?
Mar 30, 2011, 1:34 pm
#5
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Yeah, I do think WN is better at advertising.
I was surprised to see this thread about change fees, and not reward programs. At least in my market, WN is filling the airwaves extolling the New Rapid Rewards, how every seat is an award seat, and hammering the legacies, "award seats are all gone". But that's disingenuous. On the legacies, every seat is an award seat too, albeit at ~2x the miles once the standard awards are gone. But that's true with WN too, charging a lot more for scarcer seats if WGA fares are unavailable. You could even argue that the legacies are better than WN in these cases, for close-in tickets; you can often get an award at the standard level right up to departure day if the planes aren't full, whereas on WN the advance purchase requirement will have likely passed.
Part of the problem I think, is that the legacy programs are all pretty similar to each other, which makes it hard for them to run commercials, since they could point out the facets where they exceed WN, but can't make the blanket "on other airlines" claims that WN does.
I was surprised to see this thread about change fees, and not reward programs. At least in my market, WN is filling the airwaves extolling the New Rapid Rewards, how every seat is an award seat, and hammering the legacies, "award seats are all gone". But that's disingenuous. On the legacies, every seat is an award seat too, albeit at ~2x the miles once the standard awards are gone. But that's true with WN too, charging a lot more for scarcer seats if WGA fares are unavailable. You could even argue that the legacies are better than WN in these cases, for close-in tickets; you can often get an award at the standard level right up to departure day if the planes aren't full, whereas on WN the advance purchase requirement will have likely passed.
Part of the problem I think, is that the legacy programs are all pretty similar to each other, which makes it hard for them to run commercials, since they could point out the facets where they exceed WN, but can't make the blanket "on other airlines" claims that WN does.
Last edited by swag; Mar 30, 2011 at 2:42 pm
Mar 30, 2011, 1:39 pm
#6
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The legacies standby policies have changed a lot especially for non-elites.
While I gain more from UA free same day confirmed as a 1K than I would from WN no change fees, the average Joe gets more from the WN policy.
I guess I am still curious: Do non Flyertalk business traveler types that frequent WN realize the legacies have things like same day confirmed standby?
Mar 30, 2011, 1:46 pm
#7
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WN program, pricing etc are in general more simple so it's easier to further dumb down and present in an ad.
Legacies made it difficult with all sorts of different fares, classes, economy pluses, regions, alliances/partners, award charts etc etc etc. A nightmare from advertising points of view so the majority of legacies ads are in "aspire" category.
Legacies made it difficult with all sorts of different fares, classes, economy pluses, regions, alliances/partners, award charts etc etc etc. A nightmare from advertising points of view so the majority of legacies ads are in "aspire" category.
Mar 30, 2011, 2:46 pm
#8
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I was surprised to see this thread about change fees, and not reward programs. At least in my market, WN is filling the airwaves extolling the New Rapid Rewards, how every seat is an award seat, and hammering the legacies, "award seats are all gone". But that's disingenuous. On the legacies, every seat is an award seat too, albeit at ~2x the miles once the standard awards are gone.
I must say I find WN advertising fun to watch, even if I don't agree with their message that WN is best.
Last edited by wanaflyforless; Mar 30, 2011 at 5:26 pm
Mar 30, 2011, 4:46 pm
#9
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Good point.
Yes, very true. AA and UA especially do a good job of giving last seat availability for miles (2X the miles of saver level to get last seat availability). DL and US often require more than 2X saver to get last seat availability but still, yes, you can get any seat on their airline with miles.
I must say I find WN advertising fun to watch, even if I don't agree with their message that WN is best.
Yes, very true. AA and UA especially do a good job of giving last seat availability for miles (2X the miles of saver level to get last seat availability). DL and US often require more than 2X saver to get last seat availability but still, yes, you can get any seat on their airline with miles.
I must say I find WN advertising fun to watch, even if I don't agree with their message that WN is best.
http://www.usairways.com/en-US/divid...koutdates.html
http://www.usairways.com/en-US/divid...ooktravel.html
AA also charges "last minute" redemption fees (i.e. < 21 days in advance)
The difference between WN and the others though is the awards are more variable. So let's say...
UA has a 12.5k award seat at 6pm, but you want a 3pm flight which costs 25k one-way.
WN may charge $199 (12k points) for the 6pm flight, but the 3pm flight is going for $249 which will cost only 15k points. And the noon flight for $299 only costs 18k points...still less than 25k points. As long as the flights are WGA, the awards are very fair IMO.
Mar 30, 2011, 5:20 pm
#10
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Yes, with WN the number of points for a last minute LAX-BOS would often be 10X the number of points for an advance purchase LAX-LAS. With AA or UA, the difference in points between that cheap advance purchase short hop and the last minute transcon is only 2X the number of points. What program is better depends on what you need, but award costs vary more with WN than AA or UA.
Last edited by wanaflyforless; Mar 30, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Mar 30, 2011, 5:49 pm
#11
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Mar 30, 2011, 11:44 pm
#12
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I think WN advertising is geared to the infrequent traveler who automatically assumes WN will be the lowest price and only look there for flights. I have friends who only fly WN and do not believe me when I tell them other airlines have lower fares. More frequent travelers will dig harder or remain loyal to their FF program. To me, the real value in WN advertising is reminding the infrequent traveler to go to southwest.com and avoid Kayak and the likes. Any other selling points mentioned in the ad is secondary to promoting the website.
Apr 1, 2011, 11:35 am
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You described a very interesting set of parameters where a K-bucket or O-bucket ticket might or might not be available at the time you want to make a change. If you booked with the legacy carrier, and if that K or O ticket is available, then yes, the change at United could cost less than at Southwest.
Its a wild gamble. You never know until you need it. They might do it for you or they might not.
How would you boil down all the rules to something that someone could understand in a 30 second commerical? Southwest has it easy:
No change fees, just pay the fare difference.
Simple, straightforward and anybody can understand it. There may be a few instances where it is not the cheapest, but at least it is easy to understand.
United's version:
We will always charge you $150 change fee unless you find a really nice CS agent that will break the rules. We may fire her for breaking the rules, unless you were a 1K or a GS and we told her it was OK. But really the rules say that everybody, no matter how much status you have, pays the $150.
We have lots of fare buckets with lots of letter codes. Don't ask us why K is the cheapest and Y is the most expensive. We like our letter codes. They mean something to us. We aren't telling you how they were created. The letters are part of a very complex equation related to revenue management. You'd really need a math degree to understand it.
However, if you booked in K and we still have a K seat available, then we will change your flight for only $150. But, just because we have a K seat available for you, does not mean that we will sell it to somebody else at the K price. So, if available, you, the person making the change, can have the K-seat at the K-price, but a walk up customer can't.
We make no guarantees about having K-seats available. We can be Y-3 K-3 or we can be Y-3 K-0. Its all our option. If we are Y-3 K-0, then you pay the $150 and the fare difference. You rolled the dice flying with us and this time you happened to come up a loser.
Now, one good thing about us is that if you want to make a same-day change, we will let you do that for free, space available. That is better than those guys who say that they have no change fee, but will charge you the fare difference for an earlier flight stand-by. This feature will go to our highest status customers first.
If you've got status with us, we will upgrade you to first class. But, there are only 8 to 24 first class seats on our airplanes and over 100 back in coach. So, if you aren't 1K with us ... well, you do the math.
Additional rules and conditions may apply. See our web site, www.united.com for complete details written by our lawyers.
Personally, I think that Southwest has great commericals and I especially enjoy "change fee court." Explain to me, Mr. Legacy Airline CEO, why you charge $150 for something that takes 2 minutes on the Internet. Well ... its because there are people involved. But, I did it on the Internet.
What if United got rid of the change fees and when they had a K-bucket ticket available, they let you change for $0? Now, that would be something to advertise! It could also be advertised with this simple statement:
No change fees, just pay the fare difference.
Apr 1, 2011, 2:35 pm
#14
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United's version:
[I]We will always charge you $150 change fee unless you find a really nice CS agent that will break the rules. We may fire her for breaking the rules, unless you were a 1K or a GS and we told her it was OK. But really the rules say that everybody, no matter how much status you have, pays the $150.
We have lots of fare buckets with lots of letter codes. Don't ask us why K is the cheapest and Y is the most expensive. We like our letter codes. They mean something to us. We aren't telling you how they were created. The letters are part of a very complex equation related to revenue management. You'd really need a math degree to understand it.
However, if you booked in K and we still have a K seat available, then we will change your flight for only $150. But, just because we have a K seat available for you, does not mean that we will sell it to somebody else at the K price. So, if available, you, the person making the change, can have the K-seat at the K-price, but a walk up customer can't.
We make no guarantees about having K-seats available. We can be Y-3 K-3 or we can be Y-3 K-0. Its all our option. If we are Y-3 K-0, then you pay the $150 and the fare difference. You rolled the dice flying with us and this time you happened to come up a loser.
Now, one good thing about us is that if you want to make a same-day change, we will let you do that for free, space available. That is better than those guys who say that they have no change fee, but will charge you the fare difference for an earlier flight stand-by. This feature will go to our highest status customers first.
If you've got status with us, we will upgrade you to first class. But, there are only 8 to 24 first class seats on our airplanes and over 100 back in coach. So, if you aren't 1K with us ... well, you do the math.
[I]We will always charge you $150 change fee unless you find a really nice CS agent that will break the rules. We may fire her for breaking the rules, unless you were a 1K or a GS and we told her it was OK. But really the rules say that everybody, no matter how much status you have, pays the $150.
We have lots of fare buckets with lots of letter codes. Don't ask us why K is the cheapest and Y is the most expensive. We like our letter codes. They mean something to us. We aren't telling you how they were created. The letters are part of a very complex equation related to revenue management. You'd really need a math degree to understand it.
However, if you booked in K and we still have a K seat available, then we will change your flight for only $150. But, just because we have a K seat available for you, does not mean that we will sell it to somebody else at the K price. So, if available, you, the person making the change, can have the K-seat at the K-price, but a walk up customer can't.
We make no guarantees about having K-seats available. We can be Y-3 K-3 or we can be Y-3 K-0. Its all our option. If we are Y-3 K-0, then you pay the $150 and the fare difference. You rolled the dice flying with us and this time you happened to come up a loser.
Now, one good thing about us is that if you want to make a same-day change, we will let you do that for free, space available. That is better than those guys who say that they have no change fee, but will charge you the fare difference for an earlier flight stand-by. This feature will go to our highest status customers first.
If you've got status with us, we will upgrade you to first class. But, there are only 8 to 24 first class seats on our airplanes and over 100 back in coach. So, if you aren't 1K with us ... well, you do the math.
Not 100% accurate but close enough I give you a pass.
Basically I agree with your (and others in this thread) point that the legacy airline rules are too complicated to effectively advertise.