The SAS | EuroBonus Forum Kafé
Jul 9, 2019, 4:13 pm
#4936
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
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Posts: 4,820
Best example is my neighbour. Mid 30s, totally crushed is knee skiing this winter and the fantastic healthcare system doesn't approve the surgery to fix it - he is too old and they ran out of funding this year for such surgeries in this community. And told him, next year(s) his case wouldn't get any prioritization as well. He gets gymnastics and will be lame for the rest of his life... but hey, he can still walk. So where is the problem. Instead of being mad and fighting he just resigns and says "oh, that's fine". Very anecdotal as well, but sums up my experience with Swedish mentality. And obviously people who travel by train based on some political or sociological agenda for sure will rate a train higher than e.g. a flight which goes against all they believe in.
Jul 9, 2019, 8:58 pm
#4937
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I don't (globally) disagree: as I said, I have no "on the ground" knowledge.
But I would say to this... "... obviously people who travel by train based on some political or sociological agenda for sure will rate a train higher than e.g. a flight which goes against all they believe in" ... The people reported by the ministry are a random collection of Swedes, not just "people who travel by train based on some political or sociological agenda." Those of us who disparage the railroad would be the reverse of that coin.
The question is (or was): "is 'flight shaming' hurting SAS?" It may be, regardless of the reasons.
But I would say to this... "... obviously people who travel by train based on some political or sociological agenda for sure will rate a train higher than e.g. a flight which goes against all they believe in" ... The people reported by the ministry are a random collection of Swedes, not just "people who travel by train based on some political or sociological agenda." Those of us who disparage the railroad would be the reverse of that coin.
The question is (or was): "is 'flight shaming' hurting SAS?" It may be, regardless of the reasons.
The “disparagement” about the rail infrastructure is a recognition of the reality of the reliability and hassles of rail travel in the country, and that reality gets some people to fly to get from domestic point of origin to domestic destination rather than suffer the rail system too much at times. Given that rail prices for travel within Sweden have gone up too as have airline prices for travel within Sweden, it would speak to stronger demand for domestic travel. There is also a lot more family travel by car replacing flying and even train trips.
Swedes can’t travel abroad by air as and as much as they used to when the Swedish currency is weak, the housing wealth effect isn’t what it used to be, and liquid savings and investments are not at such levels as to support more traditional patterns of travel for the crowd that used to fly more but can’t as much any longer. Add into the mix the concern about the viability of the economic benefits system, and people have real economic choices to make about their future when spending money on travel.
There isn’t an MP voter I know personally who hasn’t wanted to fly to somewhere for vacation if they could afford it. And of the MP supporters whom I personally know here to frequently use the trains and public transport or even mostly bikes, I don’t know even one who hasn’t complained about problems with the domestic train infrastructure after using it a bunch. Even in Stockholm with the T-bana and commuter trains, a large proportion of people would find biking to be more reliable and be willing to suffer the weather and its results on the commute than deal with the packed trains and its system reliability. And the situation is even worse for rail traffic elsewhere in the country.
Investing in —including subsidizing— mass ground transit and other transport infrastructure of sorts doesn’t mean it’s always a case of “build it and it will succeed”. There are lots of once-beautiful rail-related buildings in the country that went the way of what happened in lots of American towns in depopulated areas of the rust belt and agricultural-heavy states in American “flyover country”. Much the same dynamic in Sweden.
Swedish interest in Germany is not what it used to be like during the 1920s, 1930s and early 1940s. So trying to use a bigger pipeline of passenger rail service between Sweden and Germany — destined via Denmark still — won’t necessarily work well even if Denmark is more majorly and popularly in on the rail action. While the massive amounts of paid vacation time and the block vacation period pushes by companies and governmental authorities in Scandinavia do facilitate the ability to take longer train and car trips, people choosing to do so are almost doing it for economic and practical reasons that align with their travel interests.
”Couchettes” and “berths” on Veolia/Snalltaget and SJ are lie-flat beds in sleeping cars. They have been for years.
Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 pm
Jul 10, 2019, 12:09 am
#4938
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
I do count metro systems as part of the train systems. If you take Tokyo, a large number of the metro/subway trains is actually regional trains passing through Tokyo.
Last edited by highupinthesky; Jul 10, 2019 at 1:33 am
Jul 10, 2019, 3:07 am
#4939
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: AGH
Posts: 5,977
The whole night train concept is kind of nice but to be honest, I took a night train once. And a few things made me never do it again. First, I felt unsafe. That could be perhaps mitigated by booking a private compartment. But then, how many are there on a given train? Also the cost of those were insane, much more than just taking a flight and a decent hotel.
Second, if the rail systems fails, e.g. due to a broken track, it fails badly. Usually leaving people stranded in some weird place without a decent alternative to get out. I was in Koblenz, Germany a few years back and the train line north was blocked due to a bomb thread. Not a single train ran for nearly a day, neither north, nor south. Couldn't even find a rental car, taxi or bus to get out of the Rhine valley area. And obvioulsy hotels were all booked up and I had to settle for a smoking room in a quite shady motel in the outskirts of the town. How many time I have been offloaded somewhere between Lund and Hässleholm? Sometimes in the middle of the night. Like 1am in Eslöv. ...? What do they think I should do then? It usually ended up with 2 hour waiting time on a taxi and then a 3.000 SEK taxi bill which of course SJ didn't reimburse.
Third, I bet those train will be dirty and run down after just a year or two.
Yepp, think about this story the next time you hear about the fantastic Scandinavian healthcare system and our socialist wonderland.
Second, if the rail systems fails, e.g. due to a broken track, it fails badly. Usually leaving people stranded in some weird place without a decent alternative to get out. I was in Koblenz, Germany a few years back and the train line north was blocked due to a bomb thread. Not a single train ran for nearly a day, neither north, nor south. Couldn't even find a rental car, taxi or bus to get out of the Rhine valley area. And obvioulsy hotels were all booked up and I had to settle for a smoking room in a quite shady motel in the outskirts of the town. How many time I have been offloaded somewhere between Lund and Hässleholm? Sometimes in the middle of the night. Like 1am in Eslöv. ...? What do they think I should do then? It usually ended up with 2 hour waiting time on a taxi and then a 3.000 SEK taxi bill which of course SJ didn't reimburse.
Third, I bet those train will be dirty and run down after just a year or two.
Yepp, think about this story the next time you hear about the fantastic Scandinavian healthcare system and our socialist wonderland.
Jul 10, 2019, 11:26 am
#4940
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The whole night train concept is kind of nice but to be honest, I took a night train once. And a few things made me never do it again. First, I felt unsafe. That could be perhaps mitigated by booking a private compartment. But then, how many are there on a given train? Also the cost of those were insane, much more than just taking a flight and a decent hotel.
Second, if the rail systems fails, e.g. due to a broken track, it fails badly. Usually leaving people stranded in some weird place without a decent alternative to get out. I was in Koblenz, Germany a few years back and the train line north was blocked due to a bomb thread. Not a single train ran for nearly a day, neither north, nor south. Couldn't even find a rental car, taxi or bus to get out of the Rhine valley area. And obvioulsy hotels were all booked up and I had to settle for a smoking room in a quite shady motel in the outskirts of the town. How many time I have been offloaded somewhere between Lund and Hässleholm? Sometimes in the middle of the night. Like 1am in Eslöv. ...? What do they think I should do then? It usually ended up with 2 hour waiting time on a taxi and then a 3.000 SEK taxi bill which of course SJ didn't reimburse.
Third, I bet those train will be dirty and run down after just a year or two.
Second, if the rail systems fails, e.g. due to a broken track, it fails badly. Usually leaving people stranded in some weird place without a decent alternative to get out. I was in Koblenz, Germany a few years back and the train line north was blocked due to a bomb thread. Not a single train ran for nearly a day, neither north, nor south. Couldn't even find a rental car, taxi or bus to get out of the Rhine valley area. And obvioulsy hotels were all booked up and I had to settle for a smoking room in a quite shady motel in the outskirts of the town. How many time I have been offloaded somewhere between Lund and Hässleholm? Sometimes in the middle of the night. Like 1am in Eslöv. ...? What do they think I should do then? It usually ended up with 2 hour waiting time on a taxi and then a 3.000 SEK taxi bill which of course SJ didn't reimburse.
Third, I bet those train will be dirty and run down after just a year or two.
I have done the night trains within Sweden and the berths/couchettes can be booked as “male”, “female” or “mixed” compartments — at least if not booking the whole compartment. I’ve yet to find them to be unsafe, whether booked as a shared (with strangers) compartment or booking the whole thing for just myself and/or related people. Although I could see how that could go very wrong if getting unlucky.
The berths/couchettes in the sleeping cars sometimes sell out when I most would want them, but otherwise I’ve found the SJ and Veolia/Snalltaget night trains to be way more reliable in being on schedule or ahead of schedule than the regular SJ and Veolia trains.
Jul 10, 2019, 12:33 pm
#4941
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 13
Most people who choose trains in Sweden do so because it’s economical and practical for domestic travel here in Sweden. And where it’s not, it’s not. I am one of those people who chose to use trains here a bunch when it makes practical/economical sense, and so are most here — as value-for-money and convenience talk loudest regardless of public posturing.
The “disparagement” about the rail infrastructure is a recognition of the reality of the reliability and hassles of rail travel in the country, and that reality gets some people to fly to get from domestic point of origin to domestic destination rather than suffer the rail system too much at times. Given that rail prices for travel within Sweden have gone up too as have airline prices for travel within Sweden, it would speak to stronger demand for domestic travel. There is also a lot more family travel by car replacing flying and even train trips.
Swedes can’t travel abroad by air as and as much as they used to when the Swedish currency is weak, the housing wealth effect isn’t what it used to be, and liquid savings and investments are not at such levels as to support more traditional patterns of travel for the crowd that used to fly more but can’t as much any longer. Add into the mix the concern about the viability of the economic benefits system, and people have real economic choices to make about their future when spending money on travel.
There isn’t an MP voter I know personally who hasn’t wanted to fly to somewhere for vacation if they could afford it. And of the MP supporters whom I personally know here to frequently use the trains and public transport or even mostly bikes, I don’t know even one who hasn’t complained about problems with the domestic train infrastructure after using it a bunch. Even in Stockholm with the T-bana and commuter trains, a large proportion of people would find biking to be more reliable and be willing to suffer the weather and its results on the commute than deal with the packed trains and its system reliability. And the situation is even worse for rail traffic elsewhere in the country.
Investing in —including subsidizing— mass ground transit and other transport infrastructure of sorts doesn’t mean it’s always a case of “build it and it will succeed”. There are lots of once-beautiful rail-related buildings in the country that went the way of what happened in lots of American towns in depopulated areas of the rust belt and agricultural-heavy states in American “flyover country”. Much the same dynamic in Sweden.
Swedish interest in Germany is not what it used to be like during the 1920s, 1930s and early 1940s. So trying to use a bigger pipeline of passenger rail service between Sweden and Germany — destined via Denmark still — won’t necessarily work well even if Denmark is more majorly and popularly in on the rail action. While the massive amounts of paid vacation time and the block vacation period pushes by companies and governmental authorities in Scandinavia do facilitate the ability to take longer train and car trips, people choosing to do so are almost doing it for economic and practical reasons that align with their travel interests.
”Couchettes” and “berths” on Veolia/Snalltaget and SJ are lie-flat beds in sleeping cars. They have been for years.
"”Couchettes” and “berths” on Veolia/Snalltaget and SJ are lie-flat beds in sleeping cars. They have been for years."
Lie-flat beds have existed in railroading since the 1800's. So, for years, indeed! And, gramatically, you are correct: a couchette car (voiture couchette in French, liegewagen in German) is a car in which one attempts sleep. But it is not what the railroad calls a sleeping car, or sovevogn (the word in Norwegian and Danish — I don't know about Swedish) https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovevogn
Couchettes are "shelves," 4 or 6 to a cabin, cabins mixed-sex or female-only. Each berth comes with a sheet (often pocket) and blanket, or with a simple comforter, and the passenger prepares his own berth. Passengers generally do not undress (since in a cabin with strangers), though that varies by culture.
Sleeping cars offer cabins equipped with "real" beds, pre-made (mattresses), ensuite washing facilities (at least a sink, increasingly shower & wc), and especially more room. The typical couchette car in Europe (they do not exist in North America) has 60 or 66 berths, the typical sleeper (single-level, vehicle of the same size) has 30 or 33. Cabins are single-sex, or booked by people travelling together.
Most of the participants in this forum (not all — there is an important "low cost" contingent) would be clients for real sleeping cars, much less likely for couchette accommodation. The distinction is important. SJ offers both (https://www.sj.se/en/about/about-sj/...ght-train.html). Any railway seeking to capture the "high contribution" market would need to do the same. Veolia / Snalltaget do not.
Jul 10, 2019, 12:52 pm
#4942
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Just a terminology thing, concerning the very last paragraph:
"”Couchettes” and “berths” on Veolia/Snalltaget and SJ are lie-flat beds in sleeping cars. They have been for years."
Lie-flat beds have existed in railroading since the 1800's. So, for years, indeed! And, gramatically, you are correct: a couchette car (voiture couchette in French, liegewagen in German) is a car in which one attempts sleep. But it is not what the railroad calls a sleeping car, or sovevogn (the word in Norwegian and Danish — I don't know about Swedish) https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovevogn
Couchettes are "shelves," 4 or 6 to a cabin, cabins mixed-sex or female-only. Each berth comes with a sheet (often pocket) and blanket, or with a simple comforter, and the passenger prepares his own berth. Passengers generally do not undress (since in a cabin with strangers), though that varies by culture.
Sleeping cars offer cabins equipped with "real" beds, pre-made (mattresses), ensuite washing facilities (at least a sink, increasingly shower & wc), and especially more room. The typical couchette car in Europe (they do not exist in North America) has 60 or 66 berths, the typical sleeper (single-level, vehicle of the same size) has 30 or 33. Cabins are single-sex, or booked by people travelling together.
Most of the participants in this forum (not all — there is an important "low cost" contingent) would be clients for real sleeping cars, much less likely for couchette accommodation. The distinction is important. SJ offers both (https://www.sj.se/en/about/about-sj/...ght-train.html). Any railway seeking to capture the "high contribution" market would need to do the same. Veolia / Snalltaget do not.
"”Couchettes” and “berths” on Veolia/Snalltaget and SJ are lie-flat beds in sleeping cars. They have been for years."
Lie-flat beds have existed in railroading since the 1800's. So, for years, indeed! And, gramatically, you are correct: a couchette car (voiture couchette in French, liegewagen in German) is a car in which one attempts sleep. But it is not what the railroad calls a sleeping car, or sovevogn (the word in Norwegian and Danish — I don't know about Swedish) https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovevogn
Couchettes are "shelves," 4 or 6 to a cabin, cabins mixed-sex or female-only. Each berth comes with a sheet (often pocket) and blanket, or with a simple comforter, and the passenger prepares his own berth. Passengers generally do not undress (since in a cabin with strangers), though that varies by culture.
Sleeping cars offer cabins equipped with "real" beds, pre-made (mattresses), ensuite washing facilities (at least a sink, increasingly shower & wc), and especially more room. The typical couchette car in Europe (they do not exist in North America) has 60 or 66 berths, the typical sleeper (single-level, vehicle of the same size) has 30 or 33. Cabins are single-sex, or booked by people travelling together.
Most of the participants in this forum (not all — there is an important "low cost" contingent) would be clients for real sleeping cars, much less likely for couchette accommodation. The distinction is important. SJ offers both (https://www.sj.se/en/about/about-sj/...ght-train.html). Any railway seeking to capture the "high contribution" market would need to do the same. Veolia / Snalltaget do not.
Sleeping cars can have different kind of sleep compartments, but couchettes/berths are all common to at least some of the sleeping cars in each country in Scandinavia with them.
The “high contribution” passengers value their time and money, and taking long trips using a night train intra-Europe isn’t for most of them either except as a novelty, and not so much as a routine all year round.
A $5-6 million subsidy won’t do a whole lot to make night train networks much more robust and widespread and economically sustainable, but I’m sure Veolia and SJ won’t mind a bit more additional money to do a government experiment that goes nowhere.
I have seen enough broken bathrooms in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish trains over many years now that I wouldn’t count on the bathrooms/sinks/showers in the sleeping cars to be all working.
Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 10, 2019 at 1:06 pm
Jul 10, 2019, 4:06 pm
#4943
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 13
The couchettes/berths on trains in Scandinavia are in what the railroad line operators call sleeping cars. They still are and have been for years.
Sleeping cars can have different kind of sleep compartments, but couchettes/berths are all common to at least some of the sleeping cars in each country in Scandinavia with them.
The “high contribution” passengers value their time and money, and taking long trips using a night train intra-Europe isn’t for most of them either except as a novelty, and not so much as a routine all year round.
A $5-6 million subsidy won’t do a whole lot to make night train networks much more robust and widespread and economically sustainable, but I’m sure Veolia and SJ won’t mind a bit more additional money to do a government experiment that goes nowhere.
I have seen enough broken bathrooms in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish trains over many years now that I wouldn’t count on the bathrooms/sinks/showers in the sleeping cars to be all working.
But I congratulate you on bringing the point back to the original question: is "flight shaming" a thing? The answer will lie in whether, as you say, "taking long trips using a night train intra-Europe isn’t for most of them either except as a novelty, and not so much as a routine all year round." If you are right, then "flight shaming" does not exist. If you are wrong, then short-distance air travel will fall off, as it appears to be doing in Scandinavia (though the reasons are unclear). Oebb (the Austrian Railways) just ordered 260 new night cars, so they are betting against you, but only history will say.
But no one else is interested in our debate, we'll have to agree to disagree! :-)
Last edited by bluemarble; Jul 10, 2019 at 4:12 pm Reason: Forgot an important point
Jul 10, 2019, 6:35 pm
#4944
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Well, I'm a regular on the Bergen - Oslo sleeper service. It's faster than flying (dinner in Bergen, breakfast in Oslo, 8 hours' sleep in between — try doing *that* on a plane!) and it has nothing to do with a "couchette" (private cabin, real bed...). And the operator (NSB) knows that, and would never call it a "couchette"!
But I congratulate you on bringing the point back to the original question: is "flight shaming" a thing? The answer will lie in whether, as you say, "taking long trips using a night train intra-Europe isn’t for most of them either except as a novelty, and not so much as a routine all year round." If you are right, then "flight shaming" does not exist. If you are wrong, then short-distance air travel will fall off, as it appears to be doing in Scandinavia (though the reasons are unclear). Oebb (the Austrian Railways) just ordered 260 new night cars, so they are betting against you, but only history will say.
But no one else is interested in our debate, we'll have to agree to disagree! :-)
But I congratulate you on bringing the point back to the original question: is "flight shaming" a thing? The answer will lie in whether, as you say, "taking long trips using a night train intra-Europe isn’t for most of them either except as a novelty, and not so much as a routine all year round." If you are right, then "flight shaming" does not exist. If you are wrong, then short-distance air travel will fall off, as it appears to be doing in Scandinavia (though the reasons are unclear). Oebb (the Austrian Railways) just ordered 260 new night cars, so they are betting against you, but only history will say.
But no one else is interested in our debate, we'll have to agree to disagree! :-)
Re paragraph 2: a) It posits a false dichotomy. The existence of “flight shaming” is not mutually exclusive to what I have said. Rather, I have indicated that it is an over-hyped concept and no more than of marginal relevance to SAS’s business results even in relation to domestic travel, and I have noted the factors of greatest relevance to the demand for air travel within Sweden. I don’t know if you’ve paid attention to the elections and poll results and the demographic voting profiles in play in this country of focus, but the MP — whose supporters are the most likely of the parliamentary parties to be into “flight shaming” — are more marginalized in society now than they were 3+ years ago. b) Sweden isn’t Austria, and what OBB does has no direct relevance to demand for SAS flights today or last year or the year before — if ever.
Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 10, 2019 at 6:46 pm
Jul 11, 2019, 2:03 am
#4945
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Preferable @30.000 feet
Programs: More than one
Posts: 1,673
I fly Bergen-Oslo a bunch and I’ve taken the train too, and it’s faster to fly than take the train between the two localities. 50 minute between boarding and disembarking by air, all while there is no maglev speed level train between Bergen and Oslo to even match the speed (let alone better it) of going by air
Last edited by highupinthesky; Jul 11, 2019 at 4:24 am
Jul 11, 2019, 6:57 am
#4946
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SJJ/AMS
Posts: 4,647
Admittedly I only have limited experience with trains in Sweden & Germany but Poland, France & Italy as well all share decent and 'well performing' railway systems, with new trains and high speed connecting most cities these days. The only grief I (and most passengers, I would have imagined) have towards Polish trains is the lack of Wi-Fi on the Pendolino, which can be quite annoying when having to reply to e-mails etc. however, on the whole, no complaints whatsoever (and, yes, I had my share of 'pain' back in the days when it used to take over 6 hours to go up to the seaside from Warsaw, but I also shared the fun of the 10+ hours from the mountains in the west -e.g. Wałbrzych- back to the capital, which was somewhat alleviated by a few bottles of vodka with the mates anyway 
).G
Jul 17, 2019, 5:34 am
#4947
Join Date: Oct 2011
Programs: EuroBonus Diamond, Delta Skymiles 360, BAEC LTG, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 2,827
What Bromma needs is a high speed train connection to Stockholm Central, more international service and less turboprops. With little effort it could easily be the LCY of Stockholm and be a tremendous asset to Stockholm's relatively poor connectivity and general subpar infrastructure.
Jul 17, 2019, 7:31 am
#4948
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Despite all its incompetence and inability to drive economic growth, I sure hope the Swedish government acknowledges the value of having an airport inside the city and not one 40KM north of it (being considerably further away for those living south of Stockholm).
What Bromma needs is a high speed train connection to Stockholm Central, more international service and less turboprops. With little effort it could easily be the LCY of Stockholm and be a tremendous asset to Stockholm's relatively poor connectivity and general subpar infrastructure.
What Bromma needs is a high speed train connection to Stockholm Central, more international service and less turboprops. With little effort it could easily be the LCY of Stockholm and be a tremendous asset to Stockholm's relatively poor connectivity and general subpar infrastructure.
Jul 18, 2019, 2:50 am
#4949
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Perth, Australia
Programs: QF; AA;
Posts: 6
As an Australian, let me remind posters that we have a country the size of Western Europe, with a population of around 24m. Compare this to the 300m+ in Europe, along with the millions of tourists who visit the place annually. Australia does not have the population and therefore the tax base to support HSR as it exists in many other countries. It may be nice to have, but it will never happen.
Jul 18, 2019, 8:48 am
#4950
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,730