AAB threatens to leave oneworld
Nov 15, 2018, 9:25 pm
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,753
I think that I could argue this both ways, -- that QR will suffer financially if it leaves OneWorld (but maybe not so much if it joins *A), and also that it won't really suffer all that much given its competitive J pricing (at least on the routes I fly most often) and greatly superior product. It seems to me that it could certainly reduce any negative effects of OneWorld withdrawal by abandoning the recent QRPC enhancements, thus making the program more valuable again.
Nov 17, 2018, 1:53 pm
#64
Ambassador: Alaska Airlines
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: BWI
Posts: 7,390
I especially like the following quote from this article (from Joyce). Be careful what you wish for.
“If aviation was governed by the World Trade Organisation, there would be some dumping cases against people for going in well below cost to force people off routes and markets. We think those rules should apply to aviation markets,” he added.
“If aviation was governed by the World Trade Organisation, there would be some dumping cases against people for going in well below cost to force people off routes and markets. We think those rules should apply to aviation markets,” he added.
Drives me nuts many, including Joyce, keeps pointing fingers at certain carriers but remain mum on other airlines that benefit them (EK aka the king of capacity dumping in QF’s case) or how UA whines about 5th freedom routes but perfectly ok when Air China starts IAH-PTY.
While QR is not perfect and yes AAB can be frustrating to work with but between the Chinese carriers and the ME3 carriers I think QR is nowhere near the worst offender in this regard.
Anyway back on topic - it’s a shame things are unraveling like this right now. It might end up being white noise or QR might walk the talk and bid adieu to Oneworld. I think QR has more to lose leaving OW than OW has to lose. With the ongoing blockade this is affecting QR’s ability to have a strong loca core customer base.
Last edited by golfingboy; Nov 17, 2018 at 2:00 pm
Nov 17, 2018, 4:26 pm
#65
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 776
I especially like the following quote from this article (from Joyce). Be careful what you wish for.
“If aviation was governed by the World Trade Organisation, there would be some dumping cases against people for going in well below cost to force people off routes and markets. We think those rules should apply to aviation markets,” he added.
“If aviation was governed by the World Trade Organisation, there would be some dumping cases against people for going in well below cost to force people off routes and markets. We think those rules should apply to aviation markets,” he added.
"Among the big draws for travellers on Qatar Airways are its low prices for long-haul destinations, particularly in business class, often as low as US$1,000 for a return ticket between Europe and Australia."
Nov 18, 2018, 6:18 pm
#66
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TPA
Programs: All The Programs
Posts: 2,204
Ha - right? I'd be thrilled if I ever saw a $2k biz trip, much less $1k ....
Nov 20, 2018, 2:28 am
#67
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NBO, MEL
Programs: QR Platinum, TK Elite
Posts: 1,357
Nov 20, 2018, 12:46 pm
#68
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: EWR
Programs: CX Green | UA Silver | Marriott Lifetime Platinum | Hyatt Globalist | Hilton Gold | AA EXP
Posts: 813
I don't have insider knowledge but my educated guess is that OW leadership is probably too preoccupied with courting CZ to worry about QR divorce. 
In a way, I feel bad for QR. It's the red-headed stepchild that's simply tolerated (at best) by major OW airlines. As mentioned by others above, AA and QF wouldn't shed a tear if QR were to leave. CX is indifferent (after the failed CX/QR JV in 2016) and LA ... well, there's nothing much going on there. Same with JL. That leaves BA but BA already have JV with QR east of London and I'm not sure what else can BA offer if QR leaves OW ...
While not identical, QR in OW is somewhat like CZ in Skyteam. At least CZ is attractive (due to china domestic market). QR has nothing to offer (to non-FT readers
) that's even close to that. It's certainly a loss to us if this were to happen but lets face it, OW is part of QR's appeal to many people. Can QR survives outside OW? Of course but I'm sure most people agree that it will be closer to EK and not EY. And no, I will not fly QR for my work and/or holiday trips to India/SE Asia if QR were to leave OW ... unless it starts offering $1K return business tickets ex-US.
In a way, I feel bad for QR. It's the red-headed stepchild that's simply tolerated (at best) by major OW airlines. As mentioned by others above, AA and QF wouldn't shed a tear if QR were to leave. CX is indifferent (after the failed CX/QR JV in 2016) and LA ... well, there's nothing much going on there. Same with JL. That leaves BA but BA already have JV with QR east of London and I'm not sure what else can BA offer if QR leaves OW ...
While not identical, QR in OW is somewhat like CZ in Skyteam. At least CZ is attractive (due to china domestic market). QR has nothing to offer (to non-FT readers
) that's even close to that. It's certainly a loss to us if this were to happen but lets face it, OW is part of QR's appeal to many people. Can QR survives outside OW? Of course but I'm sure most people agree that it will be closer to EK and not EY. And no, I will not fly QR for my work and/or holiday trips to India/SE Asia if QR were to leave OW ... unless it starts offering $1K return business tickets ex-US.
Last edited by Rivarix; Nov 20, 2018 at 2:48 pm
Nov 20, 2018, 2:12 pm
#69
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 776
Yeah, no.
Getting another hub right next to HKG vs. losing the strongest carrier for EU-AU...
Forming airline alliances isn't about stacking up revenue, but about building a competitive network.
Nov 20, 2018, 2:48 pm
#70
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: EWR
Programs: CX Green | UA Silver | Marriott Lifetime Platinum | Hyatt Globalist | Hilton Gold | AA EXP
Posts: 813
I think the article is correct in saying the value CZ brings to OW more than offset any loss from QR leaving. Of course, the reality is that it is not a binary choice between CZ and QR. OW can have both airlines in the alliance. The question is ... does QR want to be in OW?
As for EU-AU, I think people most would agree that QF/EK (+ CX) are more than capable handling the kangaroo route if QR were to leave OW ...
)
Last edited by Rivarix; Nov 20, 2018 at 2:59 pm
Nov 20, 2018, 5:14 pm
#71
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 776
CAN maybe next to HKG but CAN has unfettered access to china's domestic market which HKG does not. And then there's the upcoming Da Xing airport + the expected change in china's aviation policy that will probably allow CZ to fly ex-PVG (for certain routes) ...
I think the article is correct in saying the value CZ brings to OW more than offset any loss from QR leaving. Of course, the reality is that it is not a binary choice between CZ and QR. OW can have both airlines in the alliance. The question is ... does QR want to be in OW?
As for EU-AU, I think people most would agree that QF/EK (+ CX) are more than capable handling the kangaroo route if QR were to leave OW ...
Agreed. And that's why CZ is very important to OW's china network (despite what CX likes to think)
I think the article is correct in saying the value CZ brings to OW more than offset any loss from QR leaving. Of course, the reality is that it is not a binary choice between CZ and QR. OW can have both airlines in the alliance. The question is ... does QR want to be in OW?
As for EU-AU, I think people most would agree that QF/EK (+ CX) are more than capable handling the kangaroo route if QR were to leave OW ...
Agreed. And that's why CZ is very important to OW's china network (despite what CX likes to think
)For EU-AU, EK/QF is hardly a fitting replacement, since most flights on these routes are EK, and don't offer any OW benefits beyond QF's program. And I really prefer QR's C over EK/QF.
CX has a decent C, but much thinner coverage in Europe, and at least for my bookings significantly higher prices (not sure that's a pattern though). On top of that, I really like the separation of 6h/14h, much easier to combat jet lag than 10h/10h. I do prefer CX's lounges though. But given how well QR manages to full their AU flights lately, I don't seem to be alone with that sentiment.
Nov 21, 2018, 6:39 am
#73
Join Date: May 2010
Location: TPA
Programs: All The Programs
Posts: 2,204
BA could continue their JV with QR, so that's somewhat of a non-issue. Oneworld doesn't need to "court" CZ since AA is a minority shareholder and can influence as appropriate. Oneworld would, however, need to offer some concessions to Cathay Pacific before CX would allow CZ in the alliance.
I agree that QR needs OW more than OW needs QR. QR's departure would be a shame nonetheless, as they're such a great airline.I don't fully buy AAB's comment that QR's stake in so many other airlines could replace an alliance. That didn't work for Etihad.
I agree that QR needs OW more than OW needs QR. QR's departure would be a shame nonetheless, as they're such a great airline.I don't fully buy AAB's comment that QR's stake in so many other airlines could replace an alliance. That didn't work for Etihad.
Nov 21, 2018, 8:32 am
#74
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,535
Well hopefully they can wait another 9 months or so, as that's when I should be able to book some AA award tickets on QR for a trip to MLE.
Otherwise it'll have to be Etihad, and from what read/hear they're going down the toilet big time (service, etc. even their F service is apparently worse than QR J, even though the "apartments" are nicer).
Otherwise it'll have to be Etihad, and from what read/hear they're going down the toilet big time (service, etc. even their F service is apparently worse than QR J, even though the "apartments" are nicer).