Hmm, the brouchure doesn't say that those fees are for rewards. It's in it's own little section, and I looked a few times on the page, and it doesn't mention that at all. Qantas should really fix that up. -_-

Thanks for the info ....

Also, about the tier credits, it only mentions 'life time' for non-Bronze people... and it doesn't mention that the once-a-year reset has gone. It's very confusing.

------------------
Kun-chan...

PS - Can you go and have a look at these URLs and tell me what you think at [email protected]?

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/ax_images/
http://milesbar.com/join.asp?id=MBG1198
http://www.emailcash.com.au/join.asp?refer=C60997

BTW - Can you also have a look at my latest articles at:
http://www.themestream.com/articles/237806.html

I agree with Kunoichi that it is a bit misleading, but I suppose it is implied that the fees are all related to FF redemptions rather than actual paid tix. I am sure future revisions will correct this. Overall it's a pretty good brochure and clear for just about everything - for a public release I reckon it's pretty good.

(and looking into the terms and conditions the upgrade issue is made clear as per what bruceb said).

So if no balances are touched, this means that it is a bonus to those with decent FF point balances at QF I should think. ie: my 30,000 points now (to make up a number, I think I only have 150 odd in actual fact http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ) is worth more when translated to the new system rather than the old (IMHO anyway).

It's good that QF didn't decide to adjust everyone's balances into mileage equivalents.

One note I do not see any QF fare classes listed that do not qualify for mileage, unlike quite a few on partner airlines (interstind tweak of AA Q class on transatlantic flights). Does that suggest even the cheapest web specials and others will accrue miles at the usual rate? That may well be interresting to see if that stays or not.



------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

Hi Kunoichi,

<<Hmm, the brouchure doesn't say that those fees are for rewards. It's in it's own little section, and I looked a few times on the page, and it doesn't mention that at all. >>

I guess they think members will look at the FF members guide in a reward sense only. Seeing you don't have to be a frequent flyer to fly on Qantas, it would be a little silly to charge FF members a fee for buying tickets.

<<Also, about the tier credits, it only mentions 'life time' for non-Bronze people... and it doesn't mention that the once-a-year reset has gone. It's very confusing.>>

Below is the from the QF webpage on lifetime tire credits
"This is the ultimate reward for Frequent Flyers who give the greatest support to Qantas over a number of years. ** We will keep a tally of all the Status credits accumulated during the life of your membership. Status credits will be added to any tier credits accumulated since their introduction in September 1998. As soon as you have enough Status credits, Silver or Gold recognition will be yours for life, regardless of how often you then fly."

Note that your tier credits will still reset on an annual basis (for your normal status - Silver, Gold and Platinum). BUT QF will now start recording your lifetime tier credits as well as annual tier credits (they are the same thing, just one resets annually) - from this number they will issue upgrades and lifetime status (lifetime silver and gold). I think this is similar to other lifetime programs. Note that lifetime tier credits will be calculated from September 1998 (so some members will already be a long way towards lifetime status).

Cheers… Bruce

Hi

I have posted the following analysis elsewhere but thought it woudl be appropriate here also.

******

I stated earlier that flying long distance one would be substantially worse off. This will depend upon the class flown.

Let's take several long distance trips to arrive at an average (full fare economy)

Trip Kms (points) Miles (roughly)

Melbourne to Los Angeles 12,743 7,900
Melbourne to London 16,897 10,476
Melbourne to Tokyo 8,175 5,068
Melbourne to Singapore 6,042 3,746

Totals 43,857 27,190
Return trips 87,714 54,380

Equally let's look at some typical redemptions (economy)

Trip Points required Miles required

Melbourne to Perth 30,000 30,000
Melbourne to Auckland 30,000 30.000
Melbourne to Los Angeles 100,000 80,000
Melbourne to London 130,000 110,000

Total 290,000 250,000

Using the above, previously had one flown the four flights shown above one would have been
87,714/290,000 * 100 = 30.24% of the way to being able to fly the four flights listed.

Now one is 54,380/250,000 * 100 = 21.75% of the way to being able to fly the four flights only.

Now to be fair this is predicated on one flying full economy. Had one previously flown discount economy one would have accrued only 70% of the points thus one would have only been 70% * 30.24% of the way towards a free flight = 21.68%.

The net effect is that if you fly discount economy long distance not much will change but if you fly full fare economy long distance you will be worse off.


To some extent the argument over whether the new scheme is better than the old scheme misses the point. I'd prefer to steer away from the old/new argument at any rate as I chose not to participate in the old scheme (Ansett had some advantages that Qantas did not) and the new scheme does not particularly attract me.

My approach has always been to compare Qantas's scheme with the alternatives. Let's look at the trip across the pond namely Melbourne to Los Angeles and compare United's Mileage Plus with Qantas frequent flyer.

Firstly the following airlines fly MEL-LAX

United, Qantas, Air New Zealand

Let's assume for practical puposes that we are going to buy a discount ticket for say $1,000 (discount economy) and we want to see how far this will get us towards another trip on the same route. All airlines have matched each other's prices.

Let's start with accrual

Flying United or Air New Zealand and accruing the miles on United Mileage plus one accrues at the rate of 100% in discount economy. Ditto for flying Qantas and accruing on Qantas frequent flyer.

Miles accrued = about 15,800.

Now for the redemption - 80,000 miles on Qantas and only 60,000 miles on United's Mileage Plus (flying either Air New Zealand or United).

Thus had you flown Qantas you would only be 15,800/80,000 * 100 = 19.75% of the way towards a free ticket to LA again. If you fly United or Air New Zealand you are 15,800/60,000 * 100 = 26.33% of the way towards a free flight.

Looking at domestic redemptions the difference becomes more stark. You require 30,000 miles for a Melbourne to Perth round trip with QFF but only 20,000 Mileage Plus miles. Our 15,800 miles gets you 79% of the way to Perth but Qantas only gets you 52.66% of the way. Is it surprising that I choose to fly Air New Zealand and accrue my miles on United's Mileage Plus?

Comparing United's Mileage Plus with Qantas's Frequent Flyer it is evident that whilst accrual rates (long distance) are broadly similar, it costs far more miles to redeem for flights with Qantas & Partners than it does with United, Ansett & partner airlines.

Qantas's old scheme did have some unique attractive features namely relatively cheap business flights within Australia (37,500 points) and that wonderful round Australia award (economy 30,000 points, business 37,500 points). These attractive features are not present in the new scheme. Qantas has remoulded its scheme to be more like its international competitors however it is not competitive on long distances with the likes of United's Mileage Plus.

Lest I be accused of only looking at one aspect of Qantas's new program please compare a single long distance route namely Melbourne to Perth and accruel on QFF as against Swissair's Qualiflyer (a Qantas partner).

A round trip Mel-Per is about 5,412 km returns or about 3,355 miles return. Either program gets you 100% accruel in discount economy now.

Redemption rates for economy tickets MEL-PER on Qantas are as follows - Qantas 30,000 miles, Swissair 20,000 miles. Business class Swissair - 25,000 miles, Qantas - 45,000 miles.

Ansett would be wise to transfer its memebers to United Mielage Plus which would immediately make its scheme more competitive than Qantas's.

cheers Peter

Thanks Bruce for all your clarification. It has been great. :-) I am in NYC at present and only have the e-mail which doesn't really go into much detail, as does the web site.
I have a question regarding RTW redemption. I was planning to redeem a British Airways zone 9, which (apparently) allows unlimited travel and stopovers on all non-codeshare British Airways flights. The only restriction is the amount of time your go thru LHR. Under the new Qantas scheme will in be possible to get a RTW redeemed ticket, or will it not be worth it with the new 10,000 point stopover fee? Should I redeem my points prior to September 15? I was hoping to make the most of my points.

I also have a huge amount of points that will expire in August next year - does that mean they will not expire now?

Again, thanks so much for your online contribution. Qantas has not been entirely clear on the changes.

Cheers,

Aaron

WHAT A MESS THE SLOW FT HAS CREATED!!!!

Bruce, Richard, FF Found, Kunoichi, etc, may I please ask when things normalise if you might consider editing all dupes to a single period "." rr mark as dupe etc? It is not just this thread. MrKey posted about 30 times literally on the Catman Buzz thread .. FT is Fritzed this evening. And this thread is so informative too! Seems a shame.

------------------
~ Glen ~

Hi Peter,

Don’t mean to sound negative in this post – appreciate the analysis you have done – just disagree with the examples used.

<<Let's take several long distance trips to arrive at an average (full fare economy)>>

Only impacts less than 5% of long haul economy passengers (I think the actual number is less than 1%) - how many people do you know that pay $7000 for an economy ticket SYD-LAX (most people travel will travel business class for this price rather than full economy). So the relavent comparision is discount economy (@ the current 70% of kms to 100% of miles). When you redo the numbers with this you will see the far majority of members are better of. I posted the % in a post above. Also if you include other Asian routes in your basket of routes (route like SYD-HKG) you will find the percentage differences even bigger (as the reward cost drops from 80,000 pts to 50,000 pts).

REMEMBER: Ask yourself if you have ever paid $7000 SYD-LAX or $9000 SYD-LHR… these are the full economy rates.

So lets look at SYD-LAX example: how many trips does it take to earn a free trip
Old System: 6
New System – Bronze: 5
New System – Silver: 4
New System – Gold: 4
New System – Platinum: 3


<<Thus had you flown Qantas you would only be 15,800/80,000 * 100 = 19.75% of the way towards a free ticket to LA again. If you fly United or Air New Zealand you are 15,800/60,000 * 100 = 26.33% of the way towards a free flight. >>

Assumes you are only flying SYD-LAX. No connecting flights earning the minimum mileage bonus (1000 points). For example HBA-MEL-LAX or other combinations. This also changes the reward costs.

Lets add a fairer comparison of the two programs. Lets pick similar distance routes in each of the home markets for example in US (LAX-SFO – 338 miles / 543 kms) and Oz (SYD-MEL – 438 miles / 704 kms) + (SYD-CBR – 146 miles / 236 kms) – this gives one longer and one shorter. Both high volume business and leisure routes. On UAL you earn 338 miles (no minimum earn on shuttle) and the redemption costs you 25,000 points – 37 trips to get one free trip. On Qantas for both SYD-MEL and SYD-CBR it only takes 10 trips to earn one free one.

Note using a UAL program on SYD-MEL = 23 trips required to get one free; SYD-CBR = 69 trips to get one free.

So it is easy on both sides to pick examples where one is clearly better than the other, but I think it is over generalising to say “UAL’s” program is always better.

<<Looking at domestic redemptions the difference becomes more stark. You require 30,000 miles for a Melbourne to Perth round trip with QFF but only 20,000 Mileage Plus miles. Our 15,800 miles gets you 79% of the way to Perth but Qantas only gets you 52.66% of the way. >>

Ignores the minimum earn bonus of 1000 miles for every sector, which UAL does not offer. Also I find it interesting that the basic reward in US costs 25,000 miles and in Austrlia only 20,000 miles – why do you think this is? How long will it go on for?

Also ignores the Qantas partner network in Australia and NZ – over 100 different partners to earn additional points on.

Lets add another comparison – Australian Credit Card versus US credit card program. As credit cards a becoming a more important component of point earning.

US$1=A$2… so right of the back you earn double the number of miles.

Also look at a product like QTVC that earns 2 points for every Australian dollar spent overseas. So when I am in the US I get 4 miles for every US$ spent versus 1.


Cheers… Bruce

Hi ozstamps,

<<WHAT A MESS THE SLOW FT HAS CREATED!!!!>>

Tried to clean up but with no luck.... says I do not have the correct password.

Worked it out... FT didn't like my password.

Cheers... Bruce



[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

I know a few have mentioned this, but no-one seems to have spelt it out.
Will the current (admittedly, bargain) 30000 point Around Oz reward no longer be available under the new scheme or will it just be prohibitively expensive (points wise) as a result of the 10,000/stopover?

As an example, I recently took an award flight SYD-MEL(stopover)-WLG-SYD for 30,000 points. My calculation under the new scheme for this itinerary is 70,000 points - a 133% increase!! Is this right? If so, then it's ridiculous. A straight SYD-WLG-SYD would still be 30,000 and a SYD-MEL-SYD would be 20,000 so 2 separate itineraries would 'save' 20,000 points (70,000 - 50,000) yet involve an extra flight segment. In other words the argument for charging 10,000 per stopover to free up seats seems a bit shallow when, in this case, it would be cheaper (in points) to take an extra unneccessary flight segment.

BTW: Thanks, Bruce for your input - you have concisely answered a lot of queries.

Adam

Hi aarono,

<<I have a question regarding RTW redemption. I was planning to redeem a British Airways zone 9, which (apparently) allows unlimited travel and stopovers on all non-codeshare British Airways flights. The only restriction is the amount of time your go thru LHR. Under the new Qantas scheme will in be possible to get a RTW redeemed ticket, or will it not be worth it with the new 10,000 point stopover fee? Should I redeem my points prior to September 15? I was hoping to make the most of my points.>>

I think this is one of best rewards in the OneWorld FF programs (RTW redemptions) – Qantas, BA or AA programs. This award will continue after the 15th Sept (although I think the distance has been capped at 50,000 kms). You do not get charged the stopover fee for this type of award - you need to travel on at least 3 OneWorld carriers (Qantas needs to be one of these). There is separate table for QF oneworld awards.

<<I also have a huge amount of points that will expire in August next year - does that mean they will not expire now?>>

YES.... :: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif)))

Cheers... Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

bruceb minor correction - UA has a 500 mile minimum on all UA, UAX and UA* flights (ie: United Distress and Cattle by United.. oops I mean United Shuttle http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif). You're right that previous to this year there was no minimum on Shuttle. This has since been changed (which is why I am doing a ton of little hops on my next RTW to take advantage of it http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif ).

QF wins with the 1000 mile minimum. No question. Definately great for people in CBR, LST, HBA and places around BNE, SYD etc.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents on that one.

And yeah, noone pays $7000 for SYD-LAX you're right there!

------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

Dear Bruce

No worries.

I tried to steer away from giving examples that cast the program in one particular light. The examples I used were largely from personal experience and reflect the reasons that I chose to accrue or redeem miles on United. Based on my travel patterns (infrequent, long haul flights with redemptions from Melbourne to Perth or Cairns), United's program is good value. Add to that the thousands of miles it gives me for filling our surveys online and other free online bonuses and it is excellent value. I just redeemed 80,000 miles for 4 tickets MEL-PER. The cost to me of earning these miles was a total of about $A1,100. I doubt that I could ever have earned 120,000 miles for this amount on Qantas's program.

Mind you if Qantas dropped its joining fee
and had the right promotion (eg double points to London) I'd join.

I might add that I don't have any particular grudge against Qantas - I am just ruthless in extracting the best frequent flyer deal every time I fly. Their service is OK. For example I purchased a round trip package on Qantas to Hong Kong 2 years ago (6 nights $A834 all up) and accrued 15,108 miles for the flight all up on Swissair's Qualiflyer program. Whilst in Perth a couple of days ago I met a chap who had flown to London on Qantas and not claimed any FF points! I advised him to contact Qantas, American, Cathay etc and see who would be prepared to credit his points if he joined up. Qantas was my first choice in this instance.

I must say though that a considerable disincentive to me joining the scheme is the $82.50 joining fee. Given that few international ff programs charge joining fees (many in fact give free miles for joining) I find it very hard for Qantas to justify this impost. In competitive terms it is unacceptable.

With respect to the 20,000 miles award in Australia I don't see any reason why things will change in the short term. I understand Northwest has 20,000 mile awards in North America - I think it probably more likely that United will drop their North American rates to compete with Northwest than raise their Australian redemption rates.

Overall there have been some improvements in Qantas's FF scheme (over short hops) and some backward steps (real increase in points/miles required for most domestic awards in Australia. I guess everyone will have to look at their circumstances and weigh up which is best for them. As the French say ' Chacun a son gout' (To each his own). It is noticable however that I am a member of about 20 frequent flyer programs but not Qantas FF.

cheers Peter

I think the thread is getting to long - keep getting time out errors.... then multiple posts. Sorry! I have also been unable to edit messages (password error!).

Cheers... Bruce

WHAT A MESS THE SLOW FT HAS CREATED!!!!

Bruce, Richard, FF Found, Kunoichi, etc, may I please ask when things normalise if you might consider editing all dupes to a single period "." or mark as dupe etc? It is not just this thread. MrKey posted about 30 times literally on the Catman Buzz thread .. FT is Fritzed this evening. And this thread is so informative too! Seems a shame.

------------------
~ Glen ~

Ozstamps
You fly across the pond quite a bit. Which program will you accrue miles with in future Qantas Frequent Flyer or United Mileage Plus - and why?

Interested to hear your opinion

cheers Peter

Hi Addenda,

<<I know a few have mentioned this, but no-one seems to have spelt it out.
Will the current (admittedly, bargain) 30000 point Around Oz reward no longer be available under the new scheme or will it just be prohibitively expensive (points wise) as a result of the 10,000/stopover?>>

You can still do such a trip under the new system (and under the old for the next 18 months – although must be booked in the next 6 months). See the stopovers discussion on page 1 for more info on why.

I think the stopover rule is a much better system than most other programs (although it is a negative considering what is currently offered). Most others only offer point-to-point rewards on zonal rewards.

Also note that multiply stopovers can be taken within the oneworld RTW awards.

Hi RichardMEL,

Sorry about the UA mistake – I am an old 1K member – was going of my old statement and I used to get 500 miles for UA and Express but not shuttle.

Hi Ffhound,

<<Mind you if Qantas dropped its joining fee and had the right promotion (eg double points to London) I'd join.>>
These changes are aimed at existing members – although I take your point.
Right promotion – what about 20% bonus points on all credit card transfers.
<<With respect to the 20,000 miles award in Australia I don't see any reason why things will change in the short term. I understand Northwest has 20,000 mile awards in North America - I think it probably more likely that United will drop their North American rates to compete with Northwest than raise their Australian redemption rates.>>
I doubt it! But I could be wrong. Also note that Ansett sets the domestic redemption rates for Star carriers (actually it is a little more complicated than that…) – UAL could keep the rate low through subsidies.

<<Overall there have been some improvements in Qantas's FF scheme (over short hops) and some backward steps (real increase in points/miles required for most domestic awards in Australia. I guess everyone will have to look at their circumstances and weigh up which is best for them. As the French say ' Chacun a son gout' (To each his own). It is noticable however that I am a member of about 20 frequent flyer programs but not Qantas FF.>>

Actually people taking simple economy redemptions (which is the great masses of QF members) are on average better off. If you a higher tier then things are much better. There will be some other interesting stuff for platinums coming up soon!

Looks like we will have to convert you – just think of all those QTVC bonus partners, hotel partners, hire car companies, home loans, wine club, mobile deals. For the average Aussie on New Zealand you won’t find a broader program.

Now a question – What does everyone think about the upgrades certs… interested to get some feedback.

Cheers… Bruce

ffhound, transferring my Amex points and ANZ Qantas card points, to my existing QF balance, with the 20% bonus will leave me with about 1.5 million QF points, so I will need to be spending them not accruing them actually!

My fertile mind wonders whether QF will get into a Starwood/Hilton type deal where I can move a chunk of these over. Any such deal out there that I can use strictly QF FF points to move somewhere else? I can do that right now with the Amex MR points, to Air NZ (1=1) Starwood/Sheraton, Hilton (1=1) and somewhere else I forget.

Bruce .. the mile 500 Sh!ttle minimum payment is very new, and most current 1Ks would likely not be aware of it!

Where do I access the upgrade table using points? I'd like to see what they are doing there.

------------------
~ Glen ~

Hi ozstamps,

<<Where do I access the upgrade table using points? I'd like to see what they are doing there.>>
http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...edeemingPoints

Goto the bottom of the page - you will see the number of points / upgrade certs required by zone.

Cheers... Bruce

Thanks Bruce. WHAT a lot of reading. Phew. Need a beer now .. took me an hour! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

Hi All,

The decision to switch from kms to miles as a form of calculating the number of points members earn for flying is getting a bit of tongue-in-cheek flak this morning in the press. The decision brings QF inline with our international partners/competitors. I thought I would give you more of an overview on why just about all the airlines use miles.

Firstly it is important to have a basic understanding of how you can earn points for flying,

First choice is how are points are distributed for flying – miles versus kilometres. Although what currency you use to distribute points has nothing to do with the worth or value of the points. A good example of this is the recently announced changes to the Qantas’ programme (which includes moving from kilometres to miles). What is the outcome? They will give away more points for the same amount of flying. So a mile is not necessarily worth more than a kilometre.

Award pricing (burning),

The critical thing (as discussed in many previous posts) is how earn rates interact with burn rates – how many times do I have to fly a route to get a free redemption or the % of a free trip earned for each paid one.

Now think about partner pricing (for flying on QF or AN),

Now given the above you would think when negotiating points pricing for partner agreements you would consider not the currency but the relationship between the earning and burning. Let me give you an example of what I am getting to:

Lets take Ansett and United:
United: minimum earn 500 points, 100% earn in economy, miles, tier bonuses, cabin bonuses
Ansett: no minimum earn, 70% earn in most economy seats, kms, cabin bonuses

Net impact is you would on average get more points (regardless of currency) for the same distance flown on United when comparing to Ansett.

Ansett then prices their rewards with “their earn” rates in mind – that is they consider the number of trips to get a free one and how the number of points compares with dollars values charged of these routes.

Then finally they get around to negotiating a rate for United – United says something like “you guys are using kms we are using miles so our redemption rates should be 2/3s of yours” – conveniently forgetting the fact that they give away more points for the same amount of flying (so how can their currency be worth 1.5 of Ansett’s). So interrelationship between the two programs gets doubly uncompetitive (earn rates and burn rates are set independent of each other across the airlines). This becomes plainly evident when United’s base redemption in the US is 25,000 points but you can get a redemption of Ansett for 20,000 – cheaper than in their home market!

The same example can be done in reverse - that is how much it costs an AN member to get a domestic award on UA. You will see the AN rates are much higher than the UA member rates.

The impact is that airlines in Australia and New Zealand (QF, AN and NZ) subsidies rewards to all their partner airlines. All of them have had the wool pooled over their eyes in relation to redemption pricing for partners.

This is why I think you will see UAL’s rates for redemptions on Ansett go up (just as soon as AN realise they are subsidising the UAL programme).

Once you are all operating in the same currency you get rid of most of these problems. You can then use your partner’s redemption table when your members want to redeem a flight on your partner (no need to keep a separate table for every partner – just refer your FF members to the partners table).

Hopefully this gives you some insight into the complexities when partner airlines operate in different currencies and one of the reasons Qantas has chosen to align to the rest of the world and move to frequent flyer miles. It wouldn’t be a problem if only one partner operated in miles but when you consider BA, AA and CX all operate in miles it makes QF the odd one out.

Cheers… Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

Bruce ... good info on the AN/UA deal, yes right now I can get AN rewards dirt ceap as I have masses of UA points -- they keep throwing 300% bonusus at us! Hope their scale does not change!

Aarono I emailed at his request the process for editing posts here, so hope he finds time soon to do that!

And I'll seek input from others again on this:



------------------
~ Glen ~

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ffhound:
[B] I don't agree Bruce. Because frequent flyer miles are required to be recorded as a liability in the accounting records, Ansett will have negotiated a rate per mile with United. It would not surprise me if they have used the industry standard $US0.02 per mile. It is likely the contract was written in $US. Once a year United probably draws our its chequebook and pays Ansett for the rewards redeemed on United miles. Thus Ansett gets effectively paid for those 'free' seats it is providing.

With the exchange rate the way it is, those 2 cents are valuable. Consider my trip to Perth last week. I redeemed 20,000 miles. Ansett will probably get paid $US400 for that flight which is a tidy $A800 in revenue. Even if the contract was written in Australian dollars, Ansett are still getting revenue for these seats and that helps the bottom line.

I don't think Ansett is in any hurry to renegotiate their rates. The redemption rates are also quite attractive relative to Qantas. 20,000 miles gets you a round trip ticket anywhere in Australia. 25,000 miles gets you from Australia to Bali or Fiji (20,000 from Sydney!). 10,000 miles gets you from Melbourne to Sydney. These are attractive redemption rates yet still provide an attractive revenue stream for Ansett.

Here are the United rates
http://www.ual.com/site/primary/1,10017,1184,00.html

My bet is that Qantas will be forced to reduce its redemption rates. By its own admission it has adopted the mile as its standard currency and consumers will compare how many miles they will need on Qantas with how many miles they need on United or another airline. Granted in certain circumstances one can earn more miles flying Qantas but not all the time.

Aside from this, consumers will also see that a return flight to Canberra from Melbourne is only 9,000 points whereas on Qantas it costs 20,000 miles! Ouch! If one has a choice of a Qantas linked credit card or an Ansett linked credit card it is evident that the Ansett linked card will provide cheaper flights than Qantas for flights within Australia.

Eg lets say I spend $30,000 dollars on my credit card. I could get either 30,000 GR points or 30,000 Qantas miles. Which are more valuable? Just about every domestic award is the same number of points/miles or cheaper on Ansett.


cheers Peter

Hi Bruce,

Can you tell me where the OneWorld redemption tables are? I can only find the main Qantas one?

Do you have any tips for making the most of your points - redemption wise?

Thanks,

Aaron

..

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 04-30-2001).]

Watch it. Randy will suspend you both for a week for providing TOO much useful FF info. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I saw Randy type somewhere only in the past few days (thibk it was on Northwest chat session after Russ Hinkley left) that a US airline earns from their FF only about .8 a mile flown average, but sells points to Hilton, etc for US1.25c a mile, so those deals are more profitable to it than FLYING people who they then need to give awards to, upgrades, and spend HEAPS on admin to look after etc.

Brice is clearly in this field, and his thoughts definitely have some weight.

MY take is that Ansett will match the QF scheme within months. Sad but true in some ways. They are VERY much the junior player here now, their domestic market share has slipped from exact equal to QF to about 20% less, and dropping all the time. And Compass and Virgin have taken a chunk aout of both. They can't afford NOT to move with the big guy.

------------------
~ Glen ~

Hi Aaron,

<<Can you tell me where the OneWorld redemption tables are? I can only find the main Qantas one? >>

Can’t see it either….. I try and post it Monday – it might not have been released yet as it probably involved some partner renegotiations. Not sure, but will post when I find out something.

<<Do you have any tips for making the most of your points - redemption wise? >>

Some awards I like:

1. OneWorld Round the pacific fare with key sectors upgraded to business or first class (depending if your underlying ticket is economy or business). LanChile was a great addition for this fare.

2. OneWorld RTW awards, as discussed previously.

3. Bangkok and Hong Kong are now great value with prices dropping from 80,000 points to 50,000 points

4. Sydney/Melbourne – Perth has always been great value (nothing changed but represents great value).

5. Perth – Singapore – benefits from the combining of the domestic and international reward tables (now in Zone 2 and 30,000 points!).

6. Business to First upgrades – I love the beds – what more can I say J

Just a few of my favourites.

Cheers… Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the tips. I was also looking for the old oneworld redemption table and couldn't even get that, although I did notice that a one world RTW redemption now allows up to 10 stops with 80,000km cap? Would it not be better for me to book a RTW redemption now? - If i can find out how many points I need! ;-)10 stops opposed to 5? 80,000km opposed to 50,000km?

I am still not sure if I am entirely taken by the changes. Seems to be a lot of pluses as well as minuses. Maybe it will equal out....

cheers

Aaron

Enough arguing...

Mind you there's an upside to this for me if you are right about Ansett matching Qantas's FF scheme.

My wife has about 38,000 points sitting in her Global Rewards account at the moment. If Ansett match the program exactly then with just another 2,000 points we will have enough for 2 round trip tickets Brisbane to Noumea (916 miles one way). Sweeeeeet.

I have a question also Bruce.

If you fly on a mystery flight how many miles do you accrue?

cheers Peter

Hi aarono,

<<I was also looking for the old oneworld redemption table and couldn't even get that, although I did notice that a one world RTW redemption now allows up to 10 stops with 80,000km cap? Would it not be better for me to book a RTW redemption now? - If i can find out how many points I need! ;-)10 stops opposed to 5? 80,000km opposed to 50,000km?>>

I am not sure! I guess it depends on itinerary. I don't know - but I would guess the rates will fall slightly after the 15th September (inline with the fall in other long haul prices) - so if you are going for premium cabins and more than 5 stops I would guess before the 15th September - although I am only guessing.

<<I am still not sure if I am entirely taken by the changes. Seems to be a lot of pluses as well as minuses. Maybe it will equal out....>>

The changes to point earning (inc miles to kms, minimum earn and tier bonuses) and reward costs are supposed to be reasonably neutral – although I have been posting the positives when others post the negatives - the net impact should be small (could go either way depending on behavioural changes). Although there will be winners and losers with type of change… as always (this is the reason for the long lead time in bringing in the changes)

Although the other changes are designed to make the program more attractive and competitive:
1. Removal of points expiry
2. International upgrades
3. Lifetime recognition
4. Faster / easy to achieve status levels (inc lower retain levels)
5. Electronic upgrade certificate system (gets rid of the paper ones + makes them available to all members + allows to combine them for use on long-haul flights)
6. New recognition benefits (some still have not been announced – watch this space) – includes comp fold membership for partner, comp Qantas club entry pass, guaranteed Y seat, etc, etc
7. Removal of the account service fee (great for members that are dominant for periods of time)

My summary of FF programs worldwide is that they either offer great awards (upgrades, etc - US carriers) or they offer great recognition benefits (lounges with free alcohol, etc – European and other Asian carriers). I have a hard time thinking of another carrier that has combined the best of both worlds.

Hi Peter,

<<If you fly on a mystery flight how many miles do you accrue? >>

Mystery to me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Cheers… Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-16-2001).]

First of all: bruceb - you are an official legend. Time for you to quit being a QF ally and go tell Ansett how to fix their broken program http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Re mystery flights.. I seem to recall that the rule *used* to be (This is AN though) you'd only get a set 1000 points or something. My last MF I credited to UA (MEL-BNE-MEL) and got the usual distance credit (70%) for it. I'd imagine under the new QF system you'd get 1000 minimum and if you get a longer flight (which possibly only applies to MF's out of PER??) you'd get actual.

As for the AN/UA argument... I actually could well see under a reorganised global rewards that UA awards would go *up* as bruce suggests. But keep this in mind... If you look at it, the AN awards are really just the straight mileage equivalents of the AN award chart: ie: MEL-SYD = 17,000 km points on AN / 10,000 miles on UA (~16,000 km's), MEL-PER 30,000 points on AN, 20,000 miles on UA (32,000 km's). As bruce points out, the UA awards are still very good compared to AN because it is much easier to get more miles on UA, specially for elite level members.

Interesting times ahead, anyway !

------------------
UA 1K MEL
A Star Alliance(tm) Member.

aarono, here is the QF oneworld redemption table from my most recent membership guide
(1999):

Distance Economy/Business/First
0 - 6,000 km 60,000/105,000/145,000
6, 001 - 14,000 km 110,000/165,000/200,000
14,001 - 28,000 km 120,000/230,000/300,000
28,001 - 31,000 km 130,000/260,000/340,000
31,001 - 50,000 km 150,000/300,000/400,000
50,001 - 65,000 km 170,000/330,000/500,000
65,001 - 89,000 km 190,000/380,000/580,000

Thanks dogcanyon. That table will come in handy for comparison with the new one when it is available.

Bruce, if you could let us know as soon as the new one world redemption table is posted that would be great. Then I can decide whether to book before or after September 15th.

Bruce- you are truly a legend - thanx


cheers
Aaron

1) re the change from km to miles..sorry to be a cynic, but I remain to be convinced that it is anything other than a ploy to make it hard to compare the old system with the new, and to conceal the fact that behind all the hype, it's a pretty ordinary deal for the majority of people.

2) one real horror story which hasn't had much comment so far is the treatment of BC pax (FC too, but that's academic for me!).
In the current scheme, BC pax got about 80% more points than discount economy; BC reward flights cost 25% (dom) or 50% (int) more points. In the new scheme, BC gets only 25% more points; BC flights cost 50-100% more! THIS STINKS! It is surely the worst treatment of BC pax by any FF scheme anywhere! (The US airlines are a bit ordinary in this regard, but nowhere near as bad as this). Is this considered the way to treat high-value customers? Myself (current Silver) I will get 12% less points for BC flights under the new scheme...thanks a lot!
C'mon Qantas, get real..if you are going to give 100% for discount, then give 140% for full-economy, 180% for BC and 200% for FC (say). We aren't talking vast numbers of people..and they're the ones who make your profits!

Aarono. Thanks for doing the edits. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Previous 2 pages now are quite readable.

whughes. You want the bad news, or the bad news, or perhaps the facts?

The world's largest airline UA has forever only "paid" 25% more miles for paid Business, all routes, and 50% more miles for paid First. That is the industry norm, not the exception. And I'd love to find a Business class seat that only cost "50-100% more" than coach. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

Try 1000% more on many routes! I am flying to NYC in 2 days for a $A1299 published fare, booked direct with UA, who matched the QF fare actually, and then UA discounted it another $600 or whatever with 15% off coupons, and CS vouchers, so in the end it literally cost me less than a MEL-SYD would cost if I flew that route tomorrow. (And unlike on QF I'll earn about 40,000 or so real miles for the trip - or 2 FREE round trip tickets anywhere in Australia Ansett flies!) When QF makes those kind of deals, they will interest me.

I tweaked the system to "route" myself via day stopovers at Seattle, Denver, SFO and LAX! (All legs of course fully upgraded with one SWU Cert start to finish - when Qantas hands out totally free, FOURTEEN of those suckers like United has to me in the past 4 months they'll then get MY primary patronage!) The BUSINESS class fare SYD-NYC-SYD costs about TEN times that. That's $10,000 extra. But yes, only 25% more points for those who book it! That is the real world. Qantas just joined that world.

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]

Ozstamps,

I am starting to think I should have joined UA FF scheme. I have been with QANTAS a few years now and bought a one world global explorer ticket because of this. I think now I should have one with star alliance. Seems to be more benefits and higher rewards. I am living in NYC city at the moment and have friends visiting, I will tell them to fly UA so that they get more FF points. Can they do the day stops like you?

Bring warm clothes to NYC, it hasn't warmed up yet - coldest winter in years....

Thanks for the tips,

Aaron

Ozstamps, I know exactly what BC seats cost..I actually buy them occasionally! My point was that even UA asks only 50% extra points for BC award seats vs. economy, not 100%. And whether or not only 25% extra points for BC is the 'industry norm', it's still a ripoff, and a large backwards step for Qantas customers.

As for the 'real world', may I point out that UA (and most US airlines) are presently losing money at a great rate. Maybe they need a few more paying BC pax..

[This message has been edited by whughes3 (edited 03-17-2001).]

aarono ... The double points I get on UA (42,500) for this trip is possible only if a Premier Executive or a 1K, which your friends will not be I guess? It also earns me 8 x 500 mile confirmable 1st Class upgrade certs, another thing QF need to look at. Your friends still get the 20,000+ miles even if they have never once flown UA before, and that is clearly good for a Sydney-Broome type AN return flight, worth $1000 on its own, or nearly the cost of the MEL-NY-MEL ticket. If they talk nicely to any 1Ks they might even get their hands on some Systemwides to use as well. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Here's what it looks like (bookmark this neat website!):


www.chicago.com/cgi-bin/ gc?PATH=SYD-LAX-SEA-DEN-EWR-DEN-SFO-SYD%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

Thanks for weather tip! Very warm and sunny here and I'm packing today. Our trip out on the Staten Island ferry Sunday morning might be chillier than I imagine, so I'll pack for it!

whughes. Yep it is only 25% extra whether airlines are losing or making money, that is all they pay mostly. LH do great deal for Senator's etc, but in general flying paid J/C is not worth it in points earned.

------------------
~ Glen ~

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]

Hi whughes3,

<<1) re the change from km to miles..sorry to be a cynic, but I remain to be convinced that it is anything other than a ploy to make it hard to compare the old system with the new, and to conceal the fact that behind all the hype, it's a pretty ordinary deal for the majority of people. >>

I guess it was never going to easy convincing the sceptics http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Don’t condemn QF too quickly – give me a chance to explain!

I am not sure what other examples to give you convince you that it is not a ploy? The basic fact is that airlines alliances are becoming critical to the success of the airlines – QF simply can’t afford to be out on it’s own when all its major partners (CX, AA and BA) operate in miles.

So far we have gone through all the economy combs, upgrades and other some recogntion features... now lets look at business class.

<<2) one real horror story which hasn't had much comment so far is the treatment of BC pax (FC too, but that's academic for me!).
In the current scheme, BC pax got about 80% more points than discount economy; BC reward flights cost 25% (dom) or 50% (int) more points. In the new scheme, BC gets only 25% more points; BC flights cost 50-100% more! THIS STINKS! It is surely the worst treatment of BC pax by any FF scheme anywhere! (The US airlines are a bit ordinary in this regard, but nowhere near as bad as this). Is this considered the way to treat high-value customers? Myself (current Silver) I will get 12% less points for BC flights under the new scheme...thanks a lot!>>

There are a couple of points to go through:

1. It is much easier to move up the tiers in Qantas program when flying business or first class (in fact much easier than other US or Asian carriers). Less than 4 J class return trips SYD-LAX to retain Platinum status (just over 4 to qualify for the first time). You will find both AA and UA require substantially more round trips to qualify for 1K or exec plat. Because you move up the tiers faster on QF flying J class you get the tier bonuses much faster (which off-set the move to mile). Also note that bronze (current non-tiers) do more than 95% of their travel in discount economy – business class earn rates have very little impact on their overall points balances. So tier bonuses are designed to reverse or lessen the impact of the move to miles. Also current silvers are much more likely to make it to platinum (and stay) under the new scheme – especially for travel outside the Qantas network (many more tier credits).

2. Lets do a benchmark of US programs versus QF (in J classes):
Domestic premium: QF 30,000 for less than 2000 miles and 45,000 for other domestic and trans-Tasman flights. AA/UA 40,000 or 80,000 (depending on availability) – within 48 states; UA/AA 60,000 or 120,000 (depending on availability) – Hawaii.
International medium-hall (Australia to Asia versus USA to South America): QF 100,000 for less than 10,000 miles (includes SIN, HKG, BKK, etc). AA 90,000 or 180,000 (depending on availability); UA 80,000 or 150,000 (depending on availability).
Long-haul (SYD-LAX): QF 160,000. UA 90,000 or 150,000 (depending on availability). AA do not fly this route - use QF.
So I think the conclusion is that QF is pretty competitive – some lower and some higher. Now compare with other Asian/European carriers…. Now compare with the cash fare difference Y to J…. also remember you can use your upgrade certs or use points to upgrade on international routes. Ah yeah almost forgot Qantas has also extended the life of the upgrade certificates (so you can accumulate for use on international flights) – 1 year to 2 years.

3. Business class cabin bonus: 25% is pretty standard although some European carriers offer higher cabin bonuses with no tier status bonuses.

4. Business class minimum earn is 1250 points - so on a standard SYD-MEL you don't get 11% less points. You get 42% more points. Once again the minimum earn has been left out.... it benefits everyone on short-haul sectors (once again check your FF statement and count all thouse little transfer/connector flights). It adds up!


<< Ozstamps, I know exactly what BC seats cost..I actually buy them occasionally! My point was that even UA asks only 50% extra points for BC award seats vs. economy, not 100%. And whether or not only 25% extra points for BC is the 'industry norm', it's still a ripoff, and a large backwards step for Qantas customers.>>

As discussed above this is not quite correct. For example UA charge 25,000 for the cheapest economy redemption and 40,000 or 80,000 points for the corresponding business class seat. Look at the AA rates for the US to Europe (Y is 40,000+ business starts at 90,000).

As discussed the 25% is complemented by the tier bonuses (25-100%).

<<As for the 'real world', may I point out that UA (and most US airlines) are presently losing money at a great rate. Maybe they need a few more paying BC pax.. >>
Hmmm… Southwest is the most profitable US airline and they don’t have a business class – so I am not sure the number of points you issue in business class has any correlation to airline profitability…. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Hi Aarono,

<<I am starting to think I should have joined UA FF scheme. I have been with QANTAS a few years now and bought a one world global explorer ticket because of this. I think now I should have one with star alliance. Seems to be more benefits and higher rewards. I am living in NYC city at the moment and have friends visiting, I will tell them to fly UA so that they get more FF points. Can they do the day stops like you?>>
Looks like I have failed in my quest to spread the word on Qantas FF program http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

The oneworld explorer tickets represent the best value RTW ticket – don’t have to pay more for more miles (like star) – great way to rack up points and status quickly.

Cheers… Bruce

[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 03-17-2001).]

Bruceb, thanks for your comments..I'm still not 100% convinced, but I'll chew on it for now!
(BTW, my comment about UA's losses was intended to be a dig at the 'everything-UA-is-wonderful' brigade..I should have put a wink on it!)

May I make a few inquiries about international upgrades while I'm at it?
1) upgrades are apparently bookable from 355 days in advance..will anything be done to ensure that people (like me) who normally book close to flight time won't be disadvantaged by this?
2) will elites have have any actual or de-facto preference for upgrades?

<<(BTW, my comment about UA's losses was intended to be a dig at the 'everything-UA-is-wonderful' brigade..I should have put a wink on it!) >>

Understand! I actually think they have a good program – it’s just the product that I question… http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

<<May I make a few inquiries about international upgrades while I'm at it?
1) upgrades are apparently bookable from 355 days in advance..will anything be done to ensure that people (like me) who normally book close to flight time won't be disadvantaged by this?>>

The normal revenue management process should benefit you - in fact I imagine upgrades will be much easier to book closer to flight departure.

Cheers… Bruce


[This message has been edited by bruceb (edited 05-01-2001).]