spotwelder

Dear Fellow QFers,

I have done it again! I have managed to spend more money on buying a BA ticket thinking that it would book as full fare economy status points and it only posted as discount.

If you take the Airline Earning Table,
http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...m/terms#jump23

It quotes "Status Credits are earned on all eligible booking classes" and the list of Eligible Booking Classes for British Airways quotes BHY as the full economy. I bought an H class fare (which is the cheapest of YBH) in order to get the status points.

If you go to the link about the FF programme
http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...ivileges#jump1
then you get the long winded version of the Airline Earning Table terms for QF ONLY:
"For domestic flights within Australia, Discount Economy includes Super Saver (classes L, M, R, S, V) Red e-Deal (class N, O) and fares booked in G, Q or W. For international flights, including domestic flights within New Zealand, Discount Economy includes classes B, G, H, K, L, M, N, O, Q, R, S, V, W.
#For domestic flights within Australia, Full Economy includes Fully Flexible (classes Y, B, H) and FlexiSaver (class K). For international flights, including domestic flights within New Zealand, Full Economy is class Y. If you fly on a Flight Upgrade Award you will receive Status credits for the fare class originally purchased. " but it does not say explicitly that this is the QF only rules, you have to go back to the Airline Earning Table to find this out.

The text indicates that International Flights, full economy is Y. It does not state that this applies to QF only. There are various references to state that look at the Terms and Conditions on the website. I have done that and my interpretation appears to be wrong. The Airline Earning Table is part of the Ts and Cs.

Have I missed something that states that the privileges link text overrules the Terms and Conditions? I have made this mistake before buying an H fare for the flexibility and status points. I checked the website carefully. The miles and bonus have posted for full economy!

Confused and in Africa wishing I was within 3000 miles of a Qantas Pub.

Many thanks, I guess NM and others will explain just how stupid I am.

Fire away...

thadocta

I suspect that in the first link, the "full economy" reference refers to 1 point per mile in BHY as opposed to 1 point per 4 miles for the other classes, it is in the 'Airline Earning Table' after all.

Perhaps they should set-up a standard table, dealing with both points earning and SC earning in the one.

Try and push the point though, tell them you booked in that class specifically to get the SC's, you could have got it a lot cheaper, that you paid more based upon the misleading information on THEIR website. You never know until you try it.

Dave

Dave Noble

One does not override the other

In the Airline mileage earning table it tells you that H class earns 100% mileage. There is no mention of Status Credit earning in this table

The SC earning information informs that H class on an international flight earns Discount Economy status credits

Dave

NM

I agree with Dave 6 :-: Noble in that the table linked is only refering to FF points earning. It is referenced in the full Terms and Conditions for FF points earning rates.

Status Credits are a different kettle of fish. And as can be seen by the different earning rates for SCs between QF domestic and QF international flights, we can see that there is no strict relationship between points earning rates and SC earning rates.

I can understand why one may initially believe the earing rates would be linked, but they are not.

The only way to get full economy status credits for any flight that is not a Qantas Australian domestic flight is to purchase a full Y ticket.

Mwenenzi

From http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...ivileges#jump1
For international flights, including domestic flights within New Zealand, Full Economy is class Y. If you fly on a Flight Upgrade Award you will receive Status credits for the fare class originally purchased.

It is not that clear, but by international flight they mean all flights that are not Australian domestic.

Aisle Seat H

Well, sorry to say 'told you so', but I did !

spotwelder, I raised this issue in my first ever serious exchange on FT/ this Forum -

New FF T&Cs - Wrong Info., again.

I said that the T&Cs were in this regard very confusing/contradictory, and that any non experts looking at them would assume that because these fares are called Full Economy that they would earn Full Economy SCs, etc, and I was told in no uncertain terms - by, you guessed it, NM !!! (and Globaliser) - that anyone reading the rules would have no difficulty understanding the difference. (I relied on exactly the same sections of the T&Cs as you did, and, also as you did, the fact that the difference in rules between QF and BA/partner fares is very badly explained and that to know the difference you have to look in about 4 different places/tables).

I suggested that QF needed to be much clearer that Full Economy for miles did not always mean Full Economy for SCs, but as I say others here did not agree, and expressed their views quite strongly .

The fact that such an experienced traveller, FF progs. member and FTer as yourself was led to believe from reading the T&Cs that something was the case when it is not only proves my point, that the T&Cs are very confusing (to anyone but someone very well versed indeed in the rules etc) in regards this particular point.

I'm very sorry that you have lost out as a consequence of this, and also suggest you do what thadocta suggests and send a letter arguing your case. Can't do any harm, and hopefully they will finally change the wording of the T&Cs to make this point a lot clearer.

Not trying to open up the can of worms again guys btw, just wanted spotwelder to know he is not the only person to have fallen foul of this, it has been raised here before, and that it is an issue that has been around a long while and that QF FF have done nothing to rectify (yes, I wrote them a letter back then !).

spotwelder

OK, here is a review of how I see it. I decide to buy a ticket on Finnair. Finnair is an eligible QF partner as defined below:

You can only earn Status credits when flying on eligible Qantas, oneworldTM alliance airlines (Aer Lingus, American Airlines, British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Finnair, Iberian and LAN), Air Pacific, Jetstar or QantasLink services.... from the section on Status Credits. Agreed, all fine. This states that ANY Finnair flight number is allowed. No argument, no exceptions list...NIL.

I go off to the Airline Earning Table having proudly got my ticket on Finnair flight 2355 Helsinki to Faro on my AONEx ticket, booked in economy. Now the AET states Excluded: Points and Status Credits are not earned on codeshare Flights operated by airlines other than oneworld™ Alliance Airlines and on flights designated AY1001-AY3000 or AY7001-AY9999. The flight is operated by Finnair. It is designated as a "leisure flight" which means cattle density, no business class and so on. It is operated by Finnair. The metal is Finnair. The flight number is Finnair.

We have a clash in logic here. Some posters are saying, it is clear. Book in L class on this Finnair flight and you can then get a bucket full of points as both mileage and status collection opportunities. Forget what it says in the AET, it is completely irrelevant and a total waste of electronic cyber space. Now, if I book such a flight and don't get any points, what am I to do. I go to the Terms and Conditions, and what do I find. A nice QF lawyer saying don't be stupid, in the T and Cs there is the AET and it clearly states that Finnair 2355 does not get any points. I can only respond, the privileges section does not mention this flight number. The lawyer then makes reference to T and C:

1. Introduction
1.1 These Terms and Conditions form the basis of Qantas Frequent Flyer. They are intended to protect both Members and Qantas. It is the Member's responsibility to read and understand them.

1.2 These Terms and Conditions are effective as at the date of publication (25 May 2005) and may be amended from time to time. Members should refer to this website for the current Terms and Conditions and applicable fees for Qantas Frequent Flyer.

and states that the AET is attached to the Ts and Cs and forms a fundamental part of those Ts and Cs. It is our responsibility to understand them. We are bound by them. They must, therefore, overrule any other contrary statement given on the FFP website. That is what Ts and Cs are all about. The contract between QF and us. I know where the confusion occurs. I understand the confusion. When it comes to legal interpretation, Ts and Cs rule.

Any more legal comments?

Kiwi Flyer

Not quite. AY flights 1001-3000 and 7001-9000 are not eligible, as defined in the airline earning table.

Dave Noble

It states that you "can only earn" when travelling those airlines. It does not state that you WILL earn when travelling on those airlines


The T&C states that your flight is not eligable for mileage earning; this does not contradict the other statement since it did not state that you would earn miles, only that Finnair is a carrier on which miles can be earned.

The situation where I can accept ( and am waiting for someone to test) is taking , say, a BA flight in H class from London - Manchester and then attempting to get Full Status Credits for the flight since it is a Domestic flight on an eligable carrier and not within New Zealand

Dave

spotwelder

Done the H class thing in the UK as domestic, this is how I got caught last time, and it credits as discount economy. Whilst the UK used to own New Zealand, I am not sure that the issue is reversed at the moment. Therefore, we have the domestic flight, not New Zealand, and crediting discount economy.

If you accept the point that the Airline Earning Table contains the rules for exceptions, and that the text gives Status Credits are given for all eligible mileages and YBH are eligible at the Full Economy rate, do you not agree that they should have two separate lines as they do for QF for economy which split up B and H fares into international and domestic etc? At least then I would feel stupid not just irritated.

Dave Noble

I agree that it would make it simpler if they were to put a comment at the top of the table to indicate that only Y is eligable for Full Economy status credits except for Domestic Flights operating within Australia where Y,B,H,K are eligable for Full Status Credits.

Out of interest, has anyone here got experience of SC earning on a BA marketed flight within Australian in H class and whether it is Full or Discount?

Dave

NM

BA in H:

Qantas is an Australian airline, so I think it logical to assume that when they refer to domestic flights they are meaning Australian domestic flights, and that any flight that originates or terminates in a country other than Australia is not considered domestic flight.

AY in L on AY2355:

The initial quote you included from the T&Cs was:
This does not say that all flights operated by these airlines are eligible flights. It say that only the eligible flights operated by these airlines will earn points and SCs.

If we use your initial interpretation that all flights by these carriers earn points, then we would be earning points on QF Charter flights over the Antarctic, as well as on award flights on QF and its partners. This is not the case as these flights are no eligible flights. The points earning table is one place where the definition of an eligible flight is written.

I am sorry you got caught out. To me the definitions are quite clear.

Dave Noble

This is the one area which I do not agree with you on. It states "Domestic Flights"; it should be worded as "Domestic Flights within Australia" if they only want it to apply there or "Domestic Flights within Australia on Qantas marketed flights" if that is what is meant.

I don't think that Spottie has been credited incorrectly but, given the wording they have given, I would say there would be a strong argument for claiming full SCs on HK fares operating domestically ( e.g. ORD-HNL would make a big difference )

Dave

Kiwi Flyer

I am not so sure. QF made a point of explaining that QF domestic flights within NZ are considered international for this purpose. They didnt spell out an exception for other domestic flights outside Australia.

Much as I'd like points and SCs for the Antarctic flight I took, I dont think this is a good example for charter flights. In this case direct mileage between origin and destination is 0.

Aisle Seat H

Ehhhm... they are confusing aren't they these T&Cs. So many intelligence and well versed people disagreeing over how to interpret them, so many areas where the info is either missing, incomplete or contradictory, etc, etc... though glad they are 'clear' for at least one of us though !!!

If we have to say things like "I think it is logical to assume" - with all the ambiguity inherent in the words 'think', 'logical', and 'assume' - when discussing them we are admitting how inexact and open to interpretation the T&Cs really are.

I'm with Dave, his suggestion is a very small change but would make a lot of difference... though it would not help end all the issues raised here and in previous Threads.

By the way, if you look at the old Thread (mentioned in my previous post) you will see that this issue over whether certain UK domestic fares on BA were Full Economy for SCs or not (when they def. were for miles) was the whole reason why that Thread started ! The wording of the T&Cs was confusing and open to interpretation then, and QF have done nothing to clarify the T&Cs since, and spotwelder has been the unlucky one, this time, to be caught out by it.