Aisle Seat H

(Already posted in middle of another thread [IB miles], but thought many of you would not see that, so am starting seperate thread as think it is issue of at least some importance).

The new (post-May) FF Terms and Conditions STILL contain the wrong, misleading information for QF FF miles and SC earning rules on BA. It was wrong in the last published T&Cs, wrong in the previous one of a few years ago, and is still wrong now.

Firstly, despite it saying so, you do NOT get Full Economy SC's in B and H. They give you 100% miles for such flights not the Discount Economy 25% rate, but you get Discount Economy SCs.

Absolutely nowhere in the T&Cs, old or new, does it state there is such a Miles/SC distinction in these fare clases (or any other), and when I complained to Qantas about it they refused to give me the additional SCs. On the phone some months ago they told me that the full T&Cs that they have at their end do indeed make such a distinction, despite the official published ones not doing so. Yet they have not updated the terms and conditions.

Secondly, it does not state that miles are NOT earned on non-Oneworld codeshares (even with a BA flights number on the ticket) - as it does with all other airline partners where this is the case - despite the fact that they are not. Fly to Brussels from London for e.g. on a BA flight number on a flight flown by SN Brussels Airlines (as I did) and you get no miles or SCs. Again, when this affected me Qantas refused to give me the relevant miles and SCs.

Qantas again told me that the full T&Cs that they have state that codeshares on BA with non-Oneworld airlines do not apply for miles and SCs, though again the official published ones do not do so. Again, they have not updated the new terms and conditions accordingly.

I find this all to be not just slack but pretty outrageous, especially when they then refuse to give you the miles and SCs you thought you were getting. So much for "These Terms and Conditions... are intended to protect Members" (as the T&C intro states).

Aisle Seat H

Actually, I think they finally got it right in the last version before the latest changes - but they have gone and introduced new confusion into the current T&C by the descriptions "Economy" and "Discount Economy" in the airline earning table.

The main question is whether they are intended to have any bearing on SC earning, which is unclear. But QF's longstanding practice on SC earning on partners is consistent with the footnotes to the SC earning table - and if the new descriptions in the "airline earning table" were held to prevail over the SC table footnotes, there are acres of partner airlines on which QF would have to give full economy SCs for what are plainly deep discount economy fares.

It would be pretty outrageous for QF to hold a set of T&C which are inconsistent with the published T&C and which prevail over them - nay, it would be unlawful. I suspect that they're really referring to a manual which "clarifies" certain things. I'd love it if someone could take this issue up with them properly to see what the final answer would be - but alas it's an academic exercise for me.

thanks for that Globaliser, but I raised it cos it is more than academic if someone makes a specific booking on the assumption they are getting miles, or Full Economy SCs, because the 'Airline Earning Table' says they are, and then they don't get them.

And on the SC table footnotes thing, the fact of the matter is that by putting a nice and simple table in the new T&Cs it makes the problem I raise even more of an issue ! Cos in this lovely new table it a) has a little 'Excluded' section for each airline where there are restrictions, yet as there is no such section under BA it is only logical to assume that codeshares earn miles (even though they don't), and b) it says, clearer than ever before, that B and H are Full Economy so one would fully expect to receive Full Economy SCs (which of course you won't... though bizarrely you will get full Miles !)

og

(deleted - duplicate posting)

og

Nowithstanding what QF say or don't say in their latest "changes" booklet (and why don't they make it clear on the cover which update the booklet relates to..), surely you would be a little suspicious if QF seem to be giving BA flights more perceived benefits than QF flights? For example, it is reasonably clear that only QF Y flights earn full SCs on internationals so why would they be more generous to BA flights and give the full SCs to BA coded B and H? Frankly, I'd love it if QF did to internationals what they do to Oz domestics (ie full SCs to Y, B, H & K flights).

I acknowledge that QF SHOULD give the details and dump the vauge terms "full economy & discount economy" or at least spell out the booking classes in the plain text. That would clarify totally. But then again, as QF said, if the current "old" SC system caused "confusion" (it didn't), they then clarified it by making it (the new system) more confusing.

Globaliser

I understood your point - it's only that it's academic for me personally. I'm almost always flying on V, N and O fares, R if I'm unlucky, M if to Aus/NZ, and once in a while, a (BA) T fare. The rules are (I think) crystal clear for all of those.

NM

As I pointed out in the IB thread, I do not believe there is an issue with the definition of Full and Discount economy for SC and points earning. These are clearly two different earning definitions. The table for Point Earning (at te back of the latest printed brochure and at the end of the web page) does not make any claim to the definitions for SC earning. That is handled on page 10.

For point earning purposes, a BA flight in B and H is considered full economy and hence earns 100% base points for flown miles. For the purpose of SC earning, only Y earns full economy SC's for international flights. Any BA flight is considered an international flight, so any BA flight earns discount economy SC's for anything below Y.

It is not confusing to me. Points and SC's are different and have different earning rates. If you confused the SC earning rate based on the Point earning rate, then you probably need to read the terms and conditions more clearly.

Aisle Seat H

So explain this then please NM -

At the start of the T&Cs it states…

'Status Credits' are credits which are awarded to Members in accordance with clause 19 and which entitle Members to attain a higher program status level or retain a current status level;

…Go to Clause 19 and there is absolutely nothing there about there being a difference in the definition of Full Economy between Miles and SC earning.

If however the table you are referring to is the Status Credit Earning Table, there is again nothing to this affect. The ** next to Full Economy only refers to QF flights (as is clear from the fare classes listed, which do not correspond to the rules of other airlines in the programme) – therefore, if I am trying to work out how many miles and SCs you get on BA (or any other airline) you would do what any sensible, logical person would do and go to the Airline Earning Table, which states that B and H are Full Economy.

Furthermore, you also state that “There are clearly two different earning definitions” between points and SCs, but this is also simply not true, except it seems in this BA case – every single QF fare class named in the Status Credit Earning Table as Full Economy (Y for international and a few others for Domestic) earn Full Economy Miles and Full Economy SCs. Please advise me of one single other example where a fare class defined in the QF FF T&Cs as Full Economy, on any airline, earns Full Economy miles/points but only Discount Economy SCs.

In all the QF classes stated as Full Economy you get Full Economy miles and SCs, and there is only one other airline in the new Airline Earning Table where they even use the term Full Economy - BA. And, as we have ascertained, as every single other fare class defined in all literature of the FF programme as Full Economy earn Full Economy SCs there is no other possible conclusion one can make, from reading the T&Cs alone, that B and H on BA get Full Economy SCs. How are you possibly reading this differently ?

You also state that “Any BA flight is considered an international flight”, which may be true but again where is this stated ? If this is the case it should say so. It only takes them adding a line or two and all would be 100% clear on all these issues, which was the whole point of my original posting.

If you are arguing that we should all be able to work out/assume that QF would not give us benefits on BA that they don’t give us on QF then that may be obvious but is even more absurd – the point of having long and detailed T&Cs is that you should not have to work out or assume !

For the 'experts' who spend their lives on Qantas, and on this site, it may well be that as a consequence we can understand/decipher the T&Cs or ‘work out’ the truth, but for many others if they see Full Economy they would expect to receive all Full Economy benefits. The T&Cs should be clear for all.

Finally, if you were right about all this, why was it that senior Qantas FF staff admitted to me on the phone that the published T&Cs are incomplete and unclear ?

I think it is you who needs to read the T&Cs more clearly, as you can see I have done so !

QF WP

Not wanting to wade too deeply into this in-depth discussion , simply a question to Aisle Seat H...

Was this the personal opinion of the senior QFF staff member or the stated (published) opinion of QF?? I doubt very much that it was the latter...there is a lot left to personal interpretation of any rules in daily life, but sometimes we misinterpret, through either innocent misunderstanding or lack of understanding, what the rules are trying to explain. The problem these days is the level of complexity that (legally) companies are forced to go, to explain what we believe should be a simple point.

willyroo

It would appear the main concern here is that in the Airline Earning Table, the specific codeshare exceptions which appear for some airlines aren't shown in the BA row.

If the ticket showed a BA flight number, and it was booked under one of the codes listed in the BA row of the table, then it would seem that the Terms and Conditions are misleading.

And also - let us all keep this impersonal...

Globaliser

If we're going to go into it in detail here, there are actually some BIG clues that the airline earning table doesn't govern SC earn.

First, the only airline against which "full economy" appears in the airline earning table is BA. Yet for all SC earning there is a difference between "discount economy" and "full economy" - see the SC earning table. Now, those columns must govern SC earning for all airlines, including all of those for which there is no "full economy" description in the airline earning table (ie all airlines other than BA). So the suggestion that the airline earning table should govern SC earning would be just as likely to mean that the single word "economy" means "discount economy" as it does "full economy" - which is obviously absurd. Therefore, the airline earning table plainly does not govern SC earning.

Second, there is a description against BA W and T classes of "World Traveller Plus". Nowhere in the SC earning table does this description appear. The suggestion that the airline earning table governs SC earning would have the consequence that no SCs are earned for WT+, which is equally absurd.

Therefore the only sensible conclusion one can reach is that the description column in the airline earning table does not govern SC earning.

I agree that the description column is therefore puzzling and potentially misleading, as is the position for SC earning generally under the present T&C. But it is possible to take that argument too far, and I think that the part of the argument which I've quoted above is that one step too far in this case.

I also agree that it's seriously misleading if BA codes placed on non-OW airlines earn nothing - the T&C should say so and if they don't then QF should pony up the earning. But I suspect that someone at QF has their wires crossed on this; there are quite a few BA codeshares on non-OW airlines - until recently a big operation with LX - and I doubt that either BA or QF intended them to be non-earning in the QF scheme.

QF - Please can we have some re-writing done? Do you want help? Fly me out to Sydney and I'll do it for you for free.

QF WP

Don't you all love a response from a lawyer - thanks Globaliser (but weren't you missing some Latin in there somewhere??)

Wongo

In short, if the new T&C also refers to SC..... I feel QF is driving people to fly other airlines. I mean, I don't fly CX direct to AKL from HKG because the SC earn on QF was more then CX.
I assume that for any K fare I buy. I get full Y SC on CX rather then Discount Y SC on QF. How sad. Then again, I'm more then happy to be flying CX.
Which OW carrier is the easiest to get silver by flying WHY? Maybe I will refer this question to the OW forum...

Aisle Seat H

willyroo is right, debate was getting a little bit Handbags At 50 Paces, so lets keep it clean, keep it clean ! And isn't QF WP wise... the voice of reason ! Or maybe he is Geoff Dixon posing as a WP, trying to calm our anger over the May FF changes !!! Either way, good points !

Globaliser, your first point does not negate what I was saying, it just adds to it !

I had also noticed the CX/BA/etc things too, but didn't want my ramble to go for even longer - but all your point shows is that the T&Cs are in an even more unclear and contradictory fashion than I had even made out !

I was not saying that there isn't/can't be a difference between points and SC earning, I was saying that the T&Cs don't tell you, ANYWHERE, that there are, and that in the reality of every other case apart from the BA issue in question, Full Economy mean Full Economy. What we all agree on here I think is that 'clues' to this reality are not enough, its needs to be written clearly.

So the fact that with CX etc, and with BA World Traveller Plus, it does not state the Economy/Full Economy distinction is just proof of my point - the T&Cs are a bloody mess, with so many omissions. Following up on your point for example, nowhere does it tell us anything about how many SCs are earned on BA WT Plus - I assume (that word again !) that it is Full Economy, but that is just my guess. (Ehmm, you have got me thinking now - if you pay in WT Economy the UK£150 upgrade to WT Plus that BA sometimes offer do you get 1.25 per mile and Full Economy SCs ?!?)

Though I should add that the fare classes quoted by the SC Earning Table CANNOT relate to all partner carriers as you and NM state, they are the specific QF regulations. We know this cos it says "Discount Economy includes classes B, G, H, K, L, M, N, O, Q, S, V, W" and yet numerous of these classes do not earn you miles or SCs on numerous QF FF Partners, inc. a number of Oneworld partner carriers. (N, O, Q and W don't apply on CX for e.g., some of these don't apply on EI and AA, on FQ you can only earn in Y class, etc, etc). In other words yet another confusion/error in the T&Cs !

And on the BA codeshare thing, that is just a ridiculous and a major ommission, though I don't think it affects too many routes. I just hope noone has flown longhaul on a BA flight number run by another carrier thinking it gave them points and SCs and then they never got them.

I will have to send QF another letter on this then won't i ?!?

QF WP

No need, an AA Gold Challenge (equiv QF Silver) can be obtained from 5,000 Q-points. That's one long haul sector in discount Y (SYD/LHR) or a medium length (MEL/NRT) in non-discount Y.

That's why it's known as the "Lack of Challenge" (to coin a phrase used by Dave Noble)

QF WP

Why thank you Aisle Seat H. Brownie points will get you everywhere - I like a well structured debate like all here...because at the end, we can all sit down and share a HP ^

Do you think that if I was Geoff Dixon, I'd be wasting my time posting to this thread. I'd be in the CL between my J (Dom) or F (Intl) flights getting my money's worth from my free alcohol and flights , trying to be more like GoldFlyer

Absolutely, see if you can get any sense from them on the issue