Platy

I have a house guest en route from the UK to CNS who has spent a few days in Perth - I arranged all of her travel.

I booked her onto the 1200 departure PER-BNE connecting the 1900 departure BNE-CNS in business class using AA points on one ticket (a legitimate connection since it is bookable on QF website).

Today's 1200 PER-BNE was delayed arriving BNE around 2000.

Now I have taken the evening BNE-CNS flight on numerous occasions over the last few year and QF will usually delay this flight to accommodate late incoming PER customers. But not today even though the fight was already delayed by about 30 minutes due to the operating conditions at BNE.

So QF have put my guest onto the 2130 JQ BNE-CNS in low cost economy insisting that all accommodation in BNE is full booked out tonight so they cannot offer an alternative (e.g. QF flight tomorrow with business class cabin).

Issues arising:

1. They have made no offer of compensation (only advising "go get some points back from the issuing airline" which won't apply since its a connection from business class sector).

2. My friend was required to check in the cabin bag for the JQ flight (one bag 7kg domestic rule applied even though she was on a QF service offering with J class). (Having to wait for baggage collection may have a big impact on arrival into Cairns at midnight due to lack of taxis).

3. QF are outright lying about the lack of accommodation in BNE (I have checked on various hotel websites and chain hotel websites including Hilton, Accor, etc).

IMHO QF have not handled this one well, especially since they had a minimum of 4 hours notice (the length of the PER-BNE flight) to manage a contingency. I have a particular problem with the dishonesty. I also suspect QF don't give a sh-t about the customer since this flight was booked through AA.

What to do (if anything)?!

Dave Noble

For 1 - Qantas is not obligated to pay compensation ( unlike in the EU ) other than a refund to cabin travelled in , so sending passenger back to AA is not surprising


For 2 - The carry on weight limit on Qantas is also 7Kg , so if the bag was over 7 Kg , having to check it in is the same rule as applies to Qantas ; rebooked onto Jetstar, then the Jetstar rule of 1 bag apply regardless of what the original carrier permitted

For 3 - Were the passengers prepared to pay for their own accommodation in Brisbane? Under 9.2 Qantas, for delays, will "use reasonable endeavours to rebook you on the next available flight on our services at no additional cost to you" and "will not be responsible for paying any other costs or expenses you may incur as a result of the delay or cancellation, except as otherwise provided in these Conditions of Carriage or required by applicable laws"

Given that there was an option where Qantas could arrange transportation to the destination without an overnight stop being required, I am not too surprised that it would not pay for hotel and meals , though should have just said so , rather than suggest hotels were full

Platy

Thanks Dave: useful information.

To note that QF allows two carry one pieces at 7kg and JQ only one. If the passenger had known this she could have repacked into two pieces (assuming QF had any intention of honouring the business class allowances of the paid for ticket). QF had no evident intention of providing useful advice on the matter.

If it is NOT the QF policy to provide accommodation that should have been made clear to the passenger - we are agreed that QF should not have lied about hotels being full. If the QF policy is not to pay for accommodation why even mention the issue of hotels being full?!

FWIW the QF "customer charter" does seem to infer an expectation of accommodation / meals in certain circumstances:

"In the unlikely event that your flight is delayed overnight for reasons within our control and you are away from your home port, we will provide you with meals, accommodation and transfers.

If your travel with Qantas is disrupted for reasons that are outside our control and you are away from your home port, we will provide overnight accommodation."

How is the passenger to persuade AA that any refund of points is due?! It would seem QF have no interest in facilitating such.

The passenger is from the UK and an infrequent traveller and entirely unfamiliar with handling such issues on the spot - if QF fail to offer and clearly articulate the options (an alternate business class flight the next day), how can the passenger be expected to decide to accommodate themselves in BNE?

Dave Noble

The charter may imply things, but it has not got the capability to infer them

If there was no option but for the passenger to spend the night in Brisbane, then QF paying for accommodation may be more likely. Given that QF provided an option where no stay was required, would not expect accommodation to be paid for given the clause 9.2

Since the difference in price will be zero, then would doubt that AA will provide anything - especially since 72% of the journey was in business class ( over 2,200 miles )

Would the passengers have been prepared to pay for a hotel and taxis to get to a hotel for the night?

As far as carry on baggage goes, if the passenger had 2 pieces or the weight of piece exceeded 7Kg, it needed to be checked in

Platy

Thanks for your perspective and info, Dave

serfty

To be clear for all reading this, Qantas do permit 2 x 105cm bags weighing up to 7kg each as well as a personal item as carry-on on Qantas domestic Jet services.

Jetstar do not - I guess being on the Qantas codeshare was no help other than perhaps not being charged to check the bag.

Dave Noble

Except it is not clear whether the issue was having 2 pieces and having to check one in - or whether the issue was that the cabin bag weighed more then 7Kg; the wording of the post implies the latter to me ( since it states that the passenger had to "check in the cabin bag"

If it was the latter, then there is no difference between JQ and QF in allowing 7Kg

serfty

Actually I did misread the issue.

From the third post:On re reading, to me that affirms the PAX had 1 bag with it and it's contents weighing more than 7kg so had to check it.

number_6

Doubt AA will view any compensation due as they would have done exactly the same as QF (reroute to next available flight with same-day arrival). Has happened to me dozens of times on AA Eagle when F was not available so get Y, no compensation for either award or paid tickets. EXP benefit is to be given option to reroute overnight but hotel is generally not provided (AA usually picks it up for me but not due to EXP status). So this is BAU, and maybe a case where FF status has some benefit. In any case hard to see how QF could have done better, without pax in PER specifying that they prefer to stay overnight for a missed connection (most people want to make the next available flight).

Platy

I agree that AA is unlikely to offer any compensation and I don't think the passenger has any interest is wasting time chasing such.

To note that:

QF and AA are different airline with different policies and service standards. Indeed, QF has a customer service charter which may or may be relevant to certain situations.

QF is not the same airline as JQ (although they both come under the umbrella of QF Group) - not only does JQ lack a business class, it is low cost, thus no food, drink IFE, etc without extra cost. When QF chooses to sell QF branded and codeshare tickets including a JQ sector they usually offer the option of inclusion of the add-ons. Despite being on a business class ticket, no food, drinks or IFE are provided the passenger was expected to pay.

IIRC, similarly, it is my understanding that when QF sells domestic sectors as part of international ticket, the cabin baggage for QF international applies (does it not?): on such a basis it is not unreasonable for QF to apply the QF cabin baggage allowance when a business class passenger is bumped onto JQ. In any case, another recent thread on this bog discusses how likely it is for JQ to require compliance with cabin bag weights and consensus it that rarely happens!

Now I have also travelled on AA and missed a connection due to a late incoming flight (HNL-ORD-MIA-BGI). AA had no problem arranging overnight accommodation in MIA and issued a food voucher to be spent in the hotel.

The passenger had no opportunity to discuss options with local QF staff in PER. This was due to the simple fact that the aircraft developed a technical fault in an engine after push back and was delayed for two hours on the tarmac, whilst this was fixed. Apparently, it was up to the BNE based staff to work out alternative travel arrangements for approximately 8 passengers (some may have been going to TSV). BNE staff had in excess of a four hour window (the duration of the flight) to plan for these late arriving passengers.

"...In any case hard to see how QF could have done better..."

Surely, at the very least, QF could have done one or more of the following:

Ensured the passenger got the free of charge extras on the JQ flight (food, drink, IFE) given the passenger was a business class customer (to note that this routing PER-BNE-CNS on QF typically costs well in excess of $2,000). As mentioned above it is very usual for QF to sell its own product onto JQ with such included so this is easy to arrange.

Ensured that the QF business class cabin bag rules applied. Again, easy to arrange since this is done on other tickets.

Not LIED about the availability of hotel rooms and given the passenger a choice on arrival at BNE. The JQ flight didn't leave until 2125 about 90 minutes after the arrival of the late incoming flight from PER, so plenty of time to agree a fix with the passenger.

Offered a food / drink voucher for use in the terminal given the business lounge shuts around 2030 as a courtesy to the inconvenience caused to the passenger.

Do what they usually do in this situation (based on my experience taking this flight), which is to hold the BNE-CNS flight the extra 30 minutes to accommodate the late arriving passengers (to note the aircraft overnights in CNS upon completion of the BNE-CNS flight).

As a final point, there is strong competition in Australia on the Perth to East Coast routes, the service standards and product are very good indeed, and the cost of business class is commensurately very high.

Dave Noble

No it doesn't. Checked allowance is that of the international flight, carry on allowance is based on class/aeroplane flown at the time

Regardless - It reads that the passengers were in excess of Qantas's allowances , since it too has a 7Kg weight limit

Lounge access and benefits of the lounge access apply where there is a lounge available ; if it was closed , then that is unfortunate

It sounds that the airline did plan for the lateness by rebooking them onto JQ

Expecting the flight to be delayed just for them seems unreasonable. From the description given , it isn't to delay the flight by 30 minutes - but to delay by yet another 30 minutes to a 60 minute delay to accommodate them. Given that the arrival was at 20:00, it would need to be delayed to at least 20:15 to allow passengers to get to the onward flight , making the flight 75 minutes delayed. Given an option to travel at 21:30, it seems the sensible option

Platy

Respectfully, Dave - in terms of the cabin bags the passenger had packed to comply with the QF domestic limits, which cites TWO bags at 7kg apiece. The JQ limit is 7kg TOTAL. The passenger was NOT in excess of the QF domestic limit, but was in excess of the JQ limit. IMHO QF should arrange for the QF limit to apply if they bump a business class passenger - they have the capacity to do this. You either agree with that point of view or you don't.


Whether you find delaying a flight to be unreasonable or not is irrelevant. I am making the point that it is simply one option QF could have done. Indeed, it is an option they have taken on other occasions (whether reasonable or not in your opinion). I have personally been on that flight when it has been substantially delayed (i.e. 2100 departure - we were even chucked out of the Business Lounge at 2030 when that closed) so I know for a fact that sometimes QF has / will take that option, for whatever reasons, and at its discretion.

Irrespective of that debate, QF should have made an effort to ensure the passenger was appropriately catered for on the JQ flight! IMHO QF should have make an effort to ensure the passenger had free food, drink, IFE on the JQ flight if bumped from QF business class - they have the capacity to do this. Again, you either agree with that point of you or you don't.

If QF had no intention of arranging free catering on the JQ flight it would be reasonable for them to offer vouchers to use in the terminal given that the lounge was about to close - they have the capacity to do this.

Actually, the booking onto the JQ flight happened at a service desk AFTER the passenger arrived at BNE, so, no, QF apparently not taken such action n the 4-hr window of opportunity.

The passenger should NOT have been told that all hotels in BNE were fully booked - apart from the dishonesty (we are agreed on that score, I believe) it would dissuade the passenger from pursuing their own travel arrangements (e.g. simply calling the Emporium or Hilton, etc., to ask for a room at short notice) and requesting a flight the next day on QF business class.

The passenger is from the UK and entirely unfamiliar with JQ and had no idea what questions to ask to request any continuity of service levels. Similarly, unfamiliar with the names of local trusted hotels to call at short notice.

Whatever the terms of carriage, QF also has to comply with consumer legislation (which overrides the terms of carriage). QF is obliged by such to provide a product / service which is "fit for purpose" for the price paid.

Dave Noble

When travelling on any airline, the carry on rules of that airline will apply. It is unrealistic to expect that the airline will change its policies on an ad hoc basis because differemt airlines may be in the itinerary

The person was in excess of the JQ allowance and it still reads by the original post that they were in excess of the QF ones. How many pieces and how much did each piece weigh?

I cannot see it feasible to expect a flight to be delayed 75 minutes to accommodate latecomers. At the time the CNS flight departed , the inbound flight was still 20 minutes from even landing - plus there was the JQ flight to rebook passengers on 90 minutes after the arrival of the delayed flight. Should 100+ passengers be expected to sit on an aeroplane for another 45 minutes for the benefit of 2 people?

I do agree that stating that all hotels were full was wrong - but again - would they have been prepared to pay for their own hotel for the night and take a morning QF flight? If yes, then there is something to raise with customer service

vbroucek

Platy, it would appear from your profile that you travel reasonably enough to know that airline industry does not work on common sense principles, so using "should/would/might have" will not work here.

For one, I would be extremely pissed off if I found that I was sitting for 45 minutes on the plane ready to depart just to wait for one or two paxs who could easily be accommodate on later flight.

With all due respect, platy, can you finally answer these two questions

1. Did your friend had two hand bags weighting <=7kgs or one weighting >7kgs?
2. Was she prepared to pay for her own accommodation and fly in the morning in C class?

BTW, BNE-CNS is less than 2.5 hours flight so making so much fuss about C->Y? I would never ever pay for C on such a short flight.

Platy

Thanks, Dave. The passenger had QF domestic compliant cabin baggage as clearly stated in my last post (I c clarified this with the passenger since writing my initial post). Two pieces each within the 7kg limit.

As also clearly stated in my posts, whatever your perceptions on feasibility QF has a record of holding that particular BNS-CNS flight and the flight was already running late that day due to airport operational issues (possibly the strong winds).

The options were not clearly explained to the passenger on arrival in BNE. She had no information on which to base a decision - she did not know for example that JQ is a low cost carrier. The one thing she was told was that hotels were full in BNE so whether she would have been prepared to pay for her own accommodation is completely hypothetical and irrelevant to the reality of the situation facing the passenger.

Thanks for your point of view.