baggage and Jetstar!
Oct 8, 2013, 6:54 am
#61
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
Come on, this is getting ridiculous.
It's perfectly legitimate for you to say that the MSC would have been more beneficial to you. It's perfectly legitimate for you to take the view that on an international journey, the MSC rule makes more sense than the "first airline's allowance" rule - although I expect you would be similarly unhappy if the MSC rule actually disadvantaged you on some future trip.
But to suggest that the MSC rule, which requires many paragraphs - if not pages - to explain is somehow "simpler" than a rule that just applies the baggage allowance of the airline whose desk you are standing in front of when you check in for your first flight? It's surely a gross distortion of reality to suggest that. Everyone can see which is the simpler rule, and which is the more complex.
It's perfectly legitimate for you to say that the MSC would have been more beneficial to you. It's perfectly legitimate for you to take the view that on an international journey, the MSC rule makes more sense than the "first airline's allowance" rule - although I expect you would be similarly unhappy if the MSC rule actually disadvantaged you on some future trip.
But to suggest that the MSC rule, which requires many paragraphs - if not pages - to explain is somehow "simpler" than a rule that just applies the baggage allowance of the airline whose desk you are standing in front of when you check in for your first flight? It's surely a gross distortion of reality to suggest that. Everyone can see which is the simpler rule, and which is the more complex.
Oct 8, 2013, 6:59 am
#62
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But you did suggest that the MSC is simpler than the "first airline" rule. And that cannot possibly be right. Someone might think that you were getting a little carried away by your own frustration at the point at which you suggested that anything could be simpler than "first airline".And again, that's a different issue entirely from whether the "first airline" rule or the MSC rule has more underlying policy merit.
Oct 8, 2013, 7:09 am
#63
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
If Jetstar has chosen to apply its own rules then c'est la vie . You are in no worse a position than anyone flying Jetstar to USA
Regardless, have you actually spoken to Jetstar yet to clarify if the allowance in booking in 20Kg or 2 pieces?
If it is 20Kg, have you worked out a solution to your issue?
Regardless, have you actually spoken to Jetstar yet to clarify if the allowance in booking in 20Kg or 2 pieces?
If it is 20Kg, have you worked out a solution to your issue?
A change will cost me 3500 points and $80, not worth it.
This is all about principle for me. If qantas cant give an accurate quote, then they shouldnt give one at all. It should be clear at booking, FLASHING in big font, this is what you will get, or bggage will be that of first carrier etc... They cant change it when im not looking, thats not a good business practice. As for jetstar, their website is very hard to find specific details and their rules and regs of carriage is conveniently linked to an error page. They are beginning to resemble easyjet or ryan air.
Oct 8, 2013, 7:16 am
#64
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http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...gage/global/en
1. For travel other than from the USA and where your ultimate destination is not within the USA
Different baggage allowances may apply each time you check-in your baggage. If you check in your baggage for a multiple sector journey, the baggage policy of the most significant carrier in the itinerary will apply.
2. For travel to, from or within the USA
Under US DOT regulations, if your travel to, from or within the USA involves one or more airlines with flights that do not have a "QF" flight number, the airline whose flight number appears first on your ticket will determine whether its baggage rules or another airline's baggage rules will apply to all the flights in your itinerary. For travel between Australia and the USA, usually (but not always) Qantas' baggage rules will apply.
Different baggage allowances may apply each time you check-in your baggage. If you check in your baggage for a multiple sector journey, the baggage policy of the most significant carrier in the itinerary will apply.
2. For travel to, from or within the USA
Under US DOT regulations, if your travel to, from or within the USA involves one or more airlines with flights that do not have a "QF" flight number, the airline whose flight number appears first on your ticket will determine whether its baggage rules or another airline's baggage rules will apply to all the flights in your itinerary. For travel between Australia and the USA, usually (but not always) Qantas' baggage rules will apply.
Oct 8, 2013, 7:41 am
#65
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The Qantas website is pretty clear.
http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...gage/global/en
Why is it when someone does not read something properly before booking, often their reaction is along the lines of "it should be flashing in clear font". Not sure many people would like a website where every piece of important information flashes at you.
http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...gage/global/en
Why is it when someone does not read something properly before booking, often their reaction is along the lines of "it should be flashing in clear font". Not sure many people would like a website where every piece of important information flashes at you.
I can also understand a degree of frustration about that, even if I can't sympathise with the degree of fury worked up over $24 to increase the allowance to 40 kg which is within striking distance of 2 x 23 kg.
But I agree that if there is no specific representation about the baggage allowance for a particular booking, and the passenger can find the information pretty quickly on the QF website, then it would be dreadful to require the baggage allowance to be "FLASHING in big font". We'd need to have the departure time "FLASHING in big font" as well; and the check-in deadlines "FLASHING in big font". Likewise, the whole section on security requirements would surely have to be "FLASHING in big font" - but there is so much in that section that QF might perhaps be able to stagger the flashing, and perhaps add "Stayin' Alive" as the backing soundtrack to accompany it.
Oct 9, 2013, 2:38 am
#66
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
And I never said you said so.
But you did suggest that the MSC is simpler than the "first airline" rule. And that cannot possibly be right. Someone might think that you were getting a little carried away by your own frustration at the point at which you suggested that anything could be simpler than "first airline".And again, that's a different issue entirely from whether the "first airline" rule or the MSC rule has more underlying policy merit.
But you did suggest that the MSC is simpler than the "first airline" rule. And that cannot possibly be right. Someone might think that you were getting a little carried away by your own frustration at the point at which you suggested that anything could be simpler than "first airline".And again, that's a different issue entirely from whether the "first airline" rule or the MSC rule has more underlying policy merit.
But thankyou for finally acknowledging the error on the booking.
I am not furious, i dont think my wording writing reflects fury and as for the FLASHING FONT, well its a throw away, but when airlines deceive passengers, what do you expect? I know plenty of other occasions where warnings are required before agreeing to a payment. If you say the fine print is enough then thats your opinion. If the airlines would rather not have hundreds/thousands of complaints, maybe they should make things more obvious. Or perhaps its working out for them exactly as planed...
Oct 9, 2013, 2:42 am
#67
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Posts: 36
Oct 9, 2013, 3:01 am
#68
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Actually, I don't think I've ever disputed that.
The problem with what you were told, though, is that it sounds like you were only shown that after you booked. Is that right? If so, then the furthest that your complaint is likely to get is an apology that you were given incorrect information after you booked. You weren't misled into booking on the basis of a 2 x 23 kg allowance, because the incorrect information hadn't been given to you at that stage.
If the airline deceived you in the sense of giving you incorrect information before you booked, thus leading to you booking on the strength of that incorrect information, then you'd have a better complaint.
But if that's not what happened, and the incorrect informaton wasn't given to you until after you'd booked (and you hadn't bothered to find out the correct information before you booked), then it's not right to accuse the airline of deceiving you.
I still think, though, that the bigger and better lesson to be learned here is more likely to be "Never book on Jetstar."
The problem with what you were told, though, is that it sounds like you were only shown that after you booked. Is that right? If so, then the furthest that your complaint is likely to get is an apology that you were given incorrect information after you booked. You weren't misled into booking on the basis of a 2 x 23 kg allowance, because the incorrect information hadn't been given to you at that stage.
But if that's not what happened, and the incorrect informaton wasn't given to you until after you'd booked (and you hadn't bothered to find out the correct information before you booked), then it's not right to accuse the airline of deceiving you.
I still think, though, that the bigger and better lesson to be learned here is more likely to be "Never book on Jetstar."
Oct 9, 2013, 3:20 am
#69
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,600
People have been trying to help you in minimising extra costs; if the allowance for the journey turns out to be 20Kg rather than 2PC, ranting about it and DOT is not going to do anything constructive
Oct 9, 2013, 3:24 am
#70
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
I didnt expect such a reaction, but is a touchy subject to a lot of flyers.
To say DOT is easier, well yes it theoretically is. Its easy on paper, its easy for airlines to implement, easy for programmers to write booking software, easy for airlines to charge extra for excess baggage. I admit, its easy. On the other hand, MSC maybe a little longer to explain on paper but if it takes a paragraph, then it takes a paragraph. The world isnt run on rules and laws that can be explained in simple sentences. MSC, if it has boundaries or limits (which it does) can just as easily be written into airlines rules and regs, booking software etc etc. The advantage of MSC is that it actually has a human element, if applied correctly, it will usually benefit the traveller, or customer. Believe it or not, travellers are customers and you would think airlines would like to keep them.
No one can argue that the longest flight or international flight will USUALLY be the MSC, in most peoples opinions. If you want to make statements like sometimes this and sometimes that, then the aviation industry should just make a blanket rule for every airline to follow. The truth is, some airlines actually do understand their customers needs and do care about providing a good service, and maintaining their loyalty by giving a good all round, honest, open service. Others airlines couldnt give a sh*t. They are ONLY about the bottom line. They make their money by deceivign customers, hoping they will make mistakes, falling in to the big money traps. They budget for this. They want me to believe im getting a good deal by telling me i can fly with 40kgs for an extra $24 instead of paying hundreds for excess baggage. But no, im $24 and $6 out of pocket, and im supposed to think im getting a good deal. It doesnt sound like much but this didnt happen 10-15 years ago. Do you think they brought this in so its easier for you to understand? Maybe thats easier for you to understand... It might not sound like much, but to a ski instructor, who lives below the poverty line and is required to travel, $24 and 6kg is important. Its not all about the money anyway, its all about the vibe. Hell, we even have to pay for selecting a seat. Personally, i cant wait to see airlines putting passengers on the scales!
You guys who are saying the DOT is easy, appropriate etc. Maybe because you fly so much business and first, you are in the routine of what you know and so used to the airlines giving you more and more. Its at the low end where things are continually changing, less here, less there, and the not so frequent flyer has to deal with, pay for and comprehend all the new policies before booking and pressing accept payment. It doesnt help at all when the deception includes the booking itself.
If you read my first post, you will see that i wanted a confirmation of changes because i have flown jetstar to qantas in the past and MSC was applied. I will accept the rules if they are given to me before i pay in an acceptable way. Not changing the details of the booking after i made it, and using the excuse that its in the fine print. Do i need to read the baggage fine print, if the details of the booking are exactly what i would like??? No.
Some of you may laugh/cringe at those people on "airways" shows that complain and most of the time, they are wrong, they are idiots and their arguments are baseless. However every so often, the airline is wrong or there is an injustice. These are the people who get shafted, criticized for 'complaining' by people like you and seen as 'just another idiot slowing down my check in desk' by the check in staff when actually they do have a good reason to present an argument. If i have a legitimate complaint, i hope someone like nux is behind me in the queue, and i wont be sorry if my big, bulky, uncontrollable ski bag 'accidentally' bangs into his shins.
After all this, i do believe im in the wrong forum for this topic. It was good to get confirmation of the exact rules, and some confirmation that a few others have had similar issues, but id say the readers here are those less likely to be flying jetstar and the like.
To say DOT is easier, well yes it theoretically is. Its easy on paper, its easy for airlines to implement, easy for programmers to write booking software, easy for airlines to charge extra for excess baggage. I admit, its easy. On the other hand, MSC maybe a little longer to explain on paper but if it takes a paragraph, then it takes a paragraph. The world isnt run on rules and laws that can be explained in simple sentences. MSC, if it has boundaries or limits (which it does) can just as easily be written into airlines rules and regs, booking software etc etc. The advantage of MSC is that it actually has a human element, if applied correctly, it will usually benefit the traveller, or customer. Believe it or not, travellers are customers and you would think airlines would like to keep them.
No one can argue that the longest flight or international flight will USUALLY be the MSC, in most peoples opinions. If you want to make statements like sometimes this and sometimes that, then the aviation industry should just make a blanket rule for every airline to follow. The truth is, some airlines actually do understand their customers needs and do care about providing a good service, and maintaining their loyalty by giving a good all round, honest, open service. Others airlines couldnt give a sh*t. They are ONLY about the bottom line. They make their money by deceivign customers, hoping they will make mistakes, falling in to the big money traps. They budget for this. They want me to believe im getting a good deal by telling me i can fly with 40kgs for an extra $24 instead of paying hundreds for excess baggage. But no, im $24 and $6 out of pocket, and im supposed to think im getting a good deal. It doesnt sound like much but this didnt happen 10-15 years ago. Do you think they brought this in so its easier for you to understand? Maybe thats easier for you to understand... It might not sound like much, but to a ski instructor, who lives below the poverty line and is required to travel, $24 and 6kg is important. Its not all about the money anyway, its all about the vibe. Hell, we even have to pay for selecting a seat. Personally, i cant wait to see airlines putting passengers on the scales!
You guys who are saying the DOT is easy, appropriate etc. Maybe because you fly so much business and first, you are in the routine of what you know and so used to the airlines giving you more and more. Its at the low end where things are continually changing, less here, less there, and the not so frequent flyer has to deal with, pay for and comprehend all the new policies before booking and pressing accept payment. It doesnt help at all when the deception includes the booking itself.
If you read my first post, you will see that i wanted a confirmation of changes because i have flown jetstar to qantas in the past and MSC was applied. I will accept the rules if they are given to me before i pay in an acceptable way. Not changing the details of the booking after i made it, and using the excuse that its in the fine print. Do i need to read the baggage fine print, if the details of the booking are exactly what i would like??? No.
Some of you may laugh/cringe at those people on "airways" shows that complain and most of the time, they are wrong, they are idiots and their arguments are baseless. However every so often, the airline is wrong or there is an injustice. These are the people who get shafted, criticized for 'complaining' by people like you and seen as 'just another idiot slowing down my check in desk' by the check in staff when actually they do have a good reason to present an argument. If i have a legitimate complaint, i hope someone like nux is behind me in the queue, and i wont be sorry if my big, bulky, uncontrollable ski bag 'accidentally' bangs into his shins.
After all this, i do believe im in the wrong forum for this topic. It was good to get confirmation of the exact rules, and some confirmation that a few others have had similar issues, but id say the readers here are those less likely to be flying jetstar and the like.
Oct 9, 2013, 3:27 am
#71
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
But if that's not what happened, and the incorrect informaton wasn't given to you until after you'd booked (and you hadn't bothered to find out the correct information before you booked), then it's not right to accuse the airline of deceiving you.
I still think, though, that the bigger and better lesson to be learned here is more likely to be "Never book on Jetstar."
I still think, though, that the bigger and better lesson to be learned here is more likely to be "Never book on Jetstar."
Oct 9, 2013, 3:37 am
#72
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
I got plenty of time for a conversation about what will happen in my situation. But what is probably most frustrating is that some of you just assume that someone discussing baggage is having another 'rant'.
Even if some of what i write is ranty, the fact that you are still responding means there is some merit to it all. Im not just some out of control raving lunatic, i actually have a pretty fair argument, that i will sort out with the airlines.
Oct 9, 2013, 6:27 am
#73
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What happens if you make a dummy booking now? If it shows what you saw before you booked, it would be good evidence that you did see what you say you saw.
Oct 9, 2013, 6:36 am
#74
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 36
Its really REALLY not that simple. I have a booking on BA, EDI-LHR-HKG-MEL, all one trip, no stop overs. The last leg is QF metal but BA flight number. Long story short, BA says "We allow baggage of 2 X 23 KG but we don't know what QF will allow". So I responded "But you are checking in my bags, so what is the allowance as a BA employee will check them in, not a QF one". The response was "Please check with Qantas".....
Oct 9, 2013, 6:38 am
#75
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The advantage of MSC is that it actually has a human element, if applied correctly, it will usually benefit the traveller, or customer. Believe it or not, travellers are customers and you would think airlines would like to keep them.
No one can argue that the longest flight or international flight will USUALLY be the MSC, in most peoples opinions. ...
No one can argue that the longest flight or international flight will USUALLY be the MSC, in most peoples opinions. ...
Take this itinerary, for example: HKG-DXB on CX, then DXB-LHR on BA - in business class.
CX is the MSC, as it's the first carrier crossing from one IATA area to another (3 to 2).
CX's business class allowance is 30 kg. BA's business class allowance is 3 bags x 23 kg each = 69 kg. (BA has a further non-contractual policy waiver which I believe is irrelevant to this discussion.)
The MSC rule means that CX's allowance applies to the whole HKG-DXB-LHR trip.
How does this benefit the passenger? It's as arbitrary as the result in your case.
If you wanted to put in place a rule that truly benefited the passenger, it would be that on any through ticket, the highest allowance of any carrier on the journey applies - or, perhaps, even the highest allowance of any carrier on any sector on the entire ticket (or set of conjunction tickets).
But that is not the rule that's in place.