The "R" Word
#76

Join Date: Nov 2006
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To answer your question, they would have to demonstrate that the detention was no longer than necessary to resolve any reasonable suspicion. There is no legal requirement to tell an individual that they are free to leave, however it is judged on what the person believed at the time. If they had custody of his ID or the money, then it can be reasonably assumed that he felt he was not.
#77

Join Date: Nov 2006
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Posts: 1,152
If he is breaking no laws he is under no obligation to answer the question. Which is what he was asking and so please provide answer. Was he legally obligated to answer their questions and if so what is the law? There was no legitimate reasonable suspicion, he had $4700.00 with him and there is no law against that.
The Hitler reference was a bailout. When all else fails, when your arguments do not hold up compare something to Hitler to distract from the real discussion.
The Hitler reference was a bailout. When all else fails, when your arguments do not hold up compare something to Hitler to distract from the real discussion.
#78

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
Because, as James Duane has effectively demonstrated, answering questions from those acting under the color of authority rarely leads to good results. If The Powers That Be don't get you for the original crime, they can get you for something else you reveal in your answers.
#79
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 684
That issue is, Was Bierfeldt legally required to answer their questions? since the answer appears to be no his behavior is inconsequential.
#80
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 684
If there is no crime or an intent to commit one what is the legal basis to require someone to answer the question? You keep trying to blame the victim, in this country I am innocent until proven guilty and I am under no legal obligation to assist proving my innocence or guilt.
#81
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,657
Because, as James Duane has effectively demonstrated, answering questions from those acting under the color of authority rarely leads to good results. If The Powers That Be don't get you for the original crime, they can get you for something else you reveal in your answers.
1. Officer asks a question; passenger gives a response. A little while later in the conversation, officer acts the exact same question --- except this time, the passenger gives a slightly different response. The officer can jump on the contradiction as a willful lie, and charge the passenger with obstruction of justice.
2. In the course of the discussion about the supposed "crime", evidence of other "crimes" could be inadvertently revealed. Silly hypothetical: if the passenger says that he left his hotel an hour ago to drive to the airport, and the hotel is 100 miles from the airport, the passenger has just inadvertently confessed to speeding. Now, speeding may not be much of a crime ... but now the officer has probable cause to push further, and more problems result.
3. Intent to commit a crime is irrelevant ... ignorance of the law is no excuse, right? And unless you're an expert on the thousands of laws that apply to you as a citizen in a particular city, county, and state, there's no way for you to know that "you haven't committed a crime" at any given moment.
Keep in mind that while TSA is supposed to be focused on the security of air travel, its employees are required by TSA policy to report any potential violation of any law, whether or not it's related to TSA's mission. So ... remaining silent (or, at least, non-responsive) isn't as irrational as it might seem.
#82

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
Watch the James Duane video; he does a better job of explaining it than I. But I'll try to give some reasons:
1. Officer asks a question; passenger gives a response. A little while later in the conversation, officer acts the exact same question --- except this time, the passenger gives a slightly different response. The officer can jump on the contradiction as a willful lie, and charge the passenger with obstruction of justice.
2. In the course of the discussion about the supposed "crime", evidence of other "crimes" could be inadvertently revealed. Silly hypothetical: if the passenger says that he left his hotel an hour ago to drive to the airport, and the hotel is 100 miles from the airport, the passenger has just inadvertently confessed to speeding. Now, speeding may not be much of a crime ... but now the officer has probable cause to push further, and more problems result.
3. Intent to commit a crime is irrelevant ... ignorance of the law is no excuse, right? And unless you're an expert on the thousands of laws that apply to you as a citizen in a particular city, county, and state, there's no way for you to know that "you haven't committed a crime" at any given moment.
Keep in mind that while TSA is supposed to be focused on the security of air travel, its employees are required by TSA policy to report any potential violation of any law, whether or not it's related to TSA's mission. So ... remaining silent (or, at least, non-responsive) isn't as irrational as it might seem.
1. Officer asks a question; passenger gives a response. A little while later in the conversation, officer acts the exact same question --- except this time, the passenger gives a slightly different response. The officer can jump on the contradiction as a willful lie, and charge the passenger with obstruction of justice.
2. In the course of the discussion about the supposed "crime", evidence of other "crimes" could be inadvertently revealed. Silly hypothetical: if the passenger says that he left his hotel an hour ago to drive to the airport, and the hotel is 100 miles from the airport, the passenger has just inadvertently confessed to speeding. Now, speeding may not be much of a crime ... but now the officer has probable cause to push further, and more problems result.
3. Intent to commit a crime is irrelevant ... ignorance of the law is no excuse, right? And unless you're an expert on the thousands of laws that apply to you as a citizen in a particular city, county, and state, there's no way for you to know that "you haven't committed a crime" at any given moment.
Keep in mind that while TSA is supposed to be focused on the security of air travel, its employees are required by TSA policy to report any potential violation of any law, whether or not it's related to TSA's mission. So ... remaining silent (or, at least, non-responsive) isn't as irrational as it might seem.
#83
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
there is a gross misconception that the alcu is just a group of left-wing nut job lawyers who fight for their own left-wing nut jobs. they are actually equal opportunity nut-jobs
and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sides
and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sidesACLU
#84
Moderator: Smoking Lounge; FlyerTalk Evangelist



Join Date: Feb 2004
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there is a gross misconception that the alcu is just a group of left-wing nut job lawyers who fight for their own left-wing nut jobs. they are actually equal opportunity nut-jobs
and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sides
and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sidesIt's like saying "What about all the good things Hitler did?".
But yes, they have been on both sides of the fence.

christmas will never die tho it is the classic cluster-f*ck destroying the separation of church and state myth (n.b. myth). i'm jewish and christmas is not my holiday and personally, i do not think christmas s/b a legal holiday in a country with no state religion just like yom kippur should not be a legal holiday here in u.s unless we have a state religion of judaism but then again, who am i

as to "good old adolph", i'll pass if you please

now, with all that aside (you know i couldn't resist, right?
), yes, the aclu has had some pretty strange bedfellows such as those in favor of gun control and then the nra. the aclu does serve a purpose and i just wish politicians would stop using them to their advantage but like i said above, "but then again, who am i?"
#85

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
If there is no crime or an intent to commit one what is the legal basis to require someone to answer the question? You keep trying to blame the victim, in this country I am innocent until proven guilty and I am under no legal obligation to assist proving my innocence or guilt.
We'll see how this plays out.
#86
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
If he is breaking no laws he is under no obligation to answer the question. Which is what he was asking and so please provide answer. Was he legally obligated to answer their questions and if so what is the law? There was no legitimate reasonable suspicion, he had $4700.00 with him and there is no law against that.
The Hitler reference was a bailout. When all else fails, when your arguments do not hold up compare something to Hitler to distract from the real discussion.
The Hitler reference was a bailout. When all else fails, when your arguments do not hold up compare something to Hitler to distract from the real discussion.
#87

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
Afghan Civil Liberties Union?
Why is a tax-exempt charity dealing with non-citizens who have never been to the United States? I'm sure there's no political motive there.
For those who don't see Christmas as a legitimate legal holiday, kindly send any premium pay you may have earned back to your employer. We will also expect you to be at work bright and early on December 25th. Sorry if the climate control system is shut down, there's no use running it for 3 people.
Why is a tax-exempt charity dealing with non-citizens who have never been to the United States? I'm sure there's no political motive there.
For those who don't see Christmas as a legitimate legal holiday, kindly send any premium pay you may have earned back to your employer. We will also expect you to be at work bright and early on December 25th. Sorry if the climate control system is shut down, there's no use running it for 3 people.
#88
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 555
. . . . I believe the rights questions were diversionary, attempting to take the focus off his behavior and redirect to the officers. This tactic is nothing new to police.
To answer your question, they would have to demonstrate that the detention was no longer than necessary to resolve any reasonable suspicion. There is no legal requirement to tell an individual that they are free to leave, however it is judged on what the person believed at the time. If they had custody of his ID or the money, then it can be reasonably assumed that he felt he was not.
To answer your question, they would have to demonstrate that the detention was no longer than necessary to resolve any reasonable suspicion. There is no legal requirement to tell an individual that they are free to leave, however it is judged on what the person believed at the time. If they had custody of his ID or the money, then it can be reasonably assumed that he felt he was not.
There was nothing wrong with his behavior. Bierfeldt's behavior was calm and rational throughout the interrogation. There is no "reasonable suspicion" attached to carrying cash domestically here in the U.S. on Planet Earth, regardless how much cash one is carrying.
Bierfeldt ASKED whether he was free to go, and was told no. Further, when the airport idjits had their noses rubbed in it by some unidentified superior officer who finally declared Bierfeldt free to go, the TSO involved still attempted to refuse him access to the sterile area until overruled by his superior officer.
There mere fact that a traveler does not wish to disclose to you how much cash he/she is carrying and/or why, or does not wish to disclose any other information, certainly does not meet any level of articulable probable cause (which doesn't apply to you guys, given that you're merely glorified baggage searchers), nor is it reason for suspicion -- other than on Planet Paranoia where TSA lives. Since I'm a citizen of the United States on Planet Earth, I would not have even offered the courtesy Bierfeldt offered (to answer the questions if someone would assure him answers were legally required) -- I'd have simply told you (ever so politely) I wasn't going to discuss or disclose that information.
The fact that I have nothing to hide does not by any means imply I have everything to reveal.
#90

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
There was nothing wrong with his behavior. Bierfeldt's behavior was calm and rational throughout the interrogation. There is no "reasonable suspicion" attached to carrying cash domestically here in the U.S. on Planet Earth, regardless how much cash one is carrying.
Your complaint about the money is with the TSA, not me. The reasonable suspicion I was referring to wasn't about the money itself, it's what was developed afterward. I wasn't there, I don't know.
Bierfeldt ASKED whether he was free to go, and was told no. Further, when the airport idjits had their noses rubbed in it by some unidentified superior officer who finally declared Bierfeldt free to go, the TSO involved still attempted to refuse him access to the sterile area until overruled by his superior officer.
There mere fact that a traveler does not wish to disclose to you how much cash he/she is carrying and/or why, or does not wish to disclose any other information, certainly does not meet any level of articulable probable cause (which doesn't apply to you guys, given that you're merely glorified baggage searchers), nor is it reason for suspicion -- other than on Planet Paranoia where TSA lives. Since I'm a citizen of the United States on Planet Earth, I would not have even offered the courtesy Bierfeldt offered (to answer the questions if someone would assure him answers were legally required) -- I'd have simply told you (ever so politely) I wasn't going to discuss or disclose that information.
The fact that I have nothing to hide does not by any means imply I have everything to reveal.
The fact that I have nothing to hide does not by any means imply I have everything to reveal.
Apparently the TSA believes that large amounts of cash should be investigated by law enforcement officers. That opens Pandoras box and allows everything else to ensue. There are two 4th Amendment violations that were cited in the lawsuit, this matter is for the courts to decide.


