The "R" Word
#46
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 684
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly. Had he simply played along and captured the recording, this would be a much easier case. Now, the TSA can say something like "We did not allow him past the checkpoint because he failed to cooperate with the screening process. He was allowed to proceed once the FBI determined that they had no interest in investigating the matter further." Or something along those lines. Just my opinion.
As far as his being cleared to pass the check, listen to the recording. After the police cleared him the TSO can clearly be heard to say that he is not going to allow Bierfeldt past the checkpoint.
Last edited by magellan315; Aug 29, 2009 at 9:44 am
#47
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly. Had he simply played along and captured the recording, this would be a much easier case. Now, the TSA can say something like "We did not allow him past the checkpoint because he failed to cooperate with the screening process. He was allowed to proceed once the FBI determined that they had no interest in investigating the matter further." Or something along those lines. Just my opinion.
Further, your argument highlighted above serves to bring to the fore that the TSA is searching for more than WEI. I don't think they will go there.
#48
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 684
OK, re-reading the directive, it seems as though it uses the term "contraband" is used in an unusual manner. I may be wrong, but I believe that this simply means an item "for referral to law enforcement" and not necessarily an item that cannot clear the checkpoint. I think this is within the spirit of what I had previously read. Thoughts?
1. anything prohibited by law from being imported or exported.
2. goods imported or exported illegally.
3. illegal or prohibited trade; smuggling.
Carrying large sums of cash in the United States is not illegal. The operations directive includes cash as the last item of list of items that are already illegal, implying that cash is now illegal. And to the average TSO they would read it as such, otherwise the St. Louis incident would have never have happened.
Frankly I am mystified as to why the directive was ever issued. TSO's should contact law enforcement when they find items that are already illegal under the law. Cash is not illegal and the TSA is overstepping its authority by declaring cash as contraband/illegal.
Last edited by magellan315; Aug 29, 2009 at 10:03 am
#49
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: IAH/HOU
Programs: CO/DL
Posts: 349
I usually select the individuals for the random pat-downs far in advance of their reaching the WTMD, using a criteria known only to me and it changes each and every time I am rotated to the search area. Red shoes, bald, blond, flip-flops, I never really know until I am there

Let me know, I would be glad to give you the name of the place in a pm.
I cant see any rhyme or reason to most of the whining here, other than it is designed to be destructive to the TSA.
#50
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 72,267
I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly. Had he simply played along and captured the recording, this would be a much easier case.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled.
#51

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
Contraband is defined as
1. anything prohibited by law from being imported or exported.
2. goods imported or exported illegally.
3. illegal or prohibited trade; smuggling.
Carrying large sums of cash in the United States is not illegal. The operations directive includes cash as the last item of list of items that are already illegal, implying that cash is now illegal. And to the average TSO they would read it as such, otherwise the St. Louis incident would have never have happened.
Frankly I am mystified as to why the directive was ever issued. TSO's should contact law enforcement when they find items that are already illegal under the law. Cash is not illegal and the TSA is overstepping its authority by declaring cash as contraband/illegal.
1. anything prohibited by law from being imported or exported.
2. goods imported or exported illegally.
3. illegal or prohibited trade; smuggling.
Carrying large sums of cash in the United States is not illegal. The operations directive includes cash as the last item of list of items that are already illegal, implying that cash is now illegal. And to the average TSO they would read it as such, otherwise the St. Louis incident would have never have happened.
Frankly I am mystified as to why the directive was ever issued. TSO's should contact law enforcement when they find items that are already illegal under the law. Cash is not illegal and the TSA is overstepping its authority by declaring cash as contraband/illegal.
#52
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I've always argued that the Bierfeldt case is a horrible example to use in the fight against TSA. I just don't see his argument as being reasonable. Regardless of how you feel about TSA investigating the money, Bierfeldt's demeanor muddies the waters significantly.
#53

Join Date: Nov 2006
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Our Constitutional right to be free of an unlawful search of our person should never be dependent upon our "demeanor" at the time of the search.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled.
I don't know how the TSA will try to defend the situation, but Bierfeldt's actions certainly add several avenues. While it has been held that the simple avoidance of law enforcement is not probable cause in itself, add the circumstances and there is certainly a logical path. Would a reasonable person allow himself to be detained if a simple explanation would prevent it? Would a reasonable person believe that the TSA and police were going to conspire against him because of his political leanings? If Bierfeldt believed that he was going to be labeled a "terrorist" and there was evidence of his connection to a "radical" group, why wouldn't he clarify the record?
Again, I'm not arguing about the legality of the search. That has to be determined in a court of law. You are correct, rights should never be determined by demeanor.
#54

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The recording certainly doesn't show professionalism, but waving a red flag at the bull isn't always the answer. A calm decorum is evidence of very little, passive-aggressiveness is just as valid with silence or rude remarks.
#55
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,725
Our Constitutional right to be free of an unlawful search of our person should never be dependent upon our "demeanor" at the time of the search.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled.
if the Founding Fathers could read some of the lame explanations used today to justify government oppression, they would no doubt be appalled.
#56
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,004
#57

Join Date: Nov 2006
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Posts: 1,152
On your second point, I'm sure they will say the money was found incident to a lawful search for WEI. This discovery resulted in the police being notified who subsequently assumed the investigation.
The legal questions I see here are:
1. Can the $10,000 directive be upheld?
2. Was the money discovered during a search for WEI and located in a place where WEI could be?
3. At what point was it discovered that the amount of cash was below the directive's threshold?
4. Was there reasonable suspicion before the amount was confirmed?
5. After the amount was confirmed, was there a reason to continue the investigation?
6. If there was reason to continue the investigation, what facts determined the outcome?
#58
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and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sides
#59

Join Date: Nov 2006
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Posts: 1,152
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#60

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MIA
Programs: PC Plat/Amb
Posts: 1,152
there is a gross misconception that the alcu is just a group of left-wing nut job lawyers who fight for their own left-wing nut jobs. they are actually equal opportunity nut-jobs
and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sides
and fight for, and have fought for, both left-wing and right-wing nut jobs alike based on the issue(s) and not the political views/sidesIt's like saying "What about all the good things Hitler did?".
But yes, they have been on both sides of the fence.

