9/11 was successful because the hijackers knew once aboard, there would be no resistance from the flight crew. Period. Once all airlines changed their "don't resist policy" - and they have - a 9/11 style hijacking would be near impossible.

I've asked Bart and other TSA boosters to comment on this, and funny, they never seem to respond.

If its one thing I have learned about Ron when he does answer a direct question you know what the answer is.

So know I know where retired military goes: TSA.

1. 19 Dudes with boxcutters and Valid Real Picture IDs in their Real Names fly F one way.

TSA reaction: A 7 year obsession with confiscating and scrap selling jewelers screwdrivers, leatherman tools, grandma's knitting needles, nail clippers with the ebil 0.75 inch nail file. . .the war on little tiny pointy things.

2. One R. Reid tries to light his shoe.

TSA reaction: The World Famous Shoe Carnival�, billions of man hours wasted, billions of sox with dirty bottoms. Bonus Round: the Match and Lighter Carnival.

3. Some 20 year old Brit punk kids write about doing a scientifically impossible chemistry synthesis in an airplane lav, without ever actually practicing or doing it to find out if their Jr. Khemistry will actually work in the Real World, not just their Fantasy Jr. Jihad World.

TSA reaction: The War on Water, the Toothpaste Takeaway, the confiscation of yogurt and pumpkin pies to keep us safe. Billions of bottles of water stolen from pax and thrown in the landfill.

The TSAers who post here and on Propanganda Villiage keep saying "all that expensive NSA warrentless spying and our SSI research are keeping ahead of the tewwowists." My reply: Grass after it has been used by a male bovine.

EVERYTHING done by TSA is to prevent the LAST modus operandi of OBL and his friends. Showing the bad guys are ALWAYS one step ahead of the TSA, inventing new stuff which the TSA only bans in hindsight, like the general preparing to fight the last war.

Can any TSAer give us ONE example of a threat that was thought up by the TSA Think Tank before the Jihadists thought it up, and put the ban in place in advance, and not as a knee jerk closing the barn door after the horse escaped, as listed in examples 1 thru 3 above?

"Adding TDCs" is not a valid example, see Example 1 above. "But no one has attempted to hijack an airliner using a fake ID yet" is crap, ID does not = Security. If you want to list "adding BDOs" then list the names and dates of all the Real Terrorists they have found. (Bomb parts in checked bag in MCO by someone not intending harm to the plane is NOT a Terrorist Big Catch�.) Examples must be valid, not Mission Creep like harassssing guys with $4700 cash and a Ron Paul bumper sticker.

Because if you are not ahead of OBL, you are not keeping us safe. Hence the term Security Theatre commonly applied to TSA.

Oh, almost forgot OT thread comment in Condition Orange: Noun, verb, 9/11�.

Fortunately, that didn't work for Rudy Giuliani when he ran for President.

I have never mentioned bovine or NSA or toro caca.... Well, maybe the toro caca...

That being said the BDO program (regardless of what you say/think/want) is a valid program. It has resulted in several people being caught while exhibiting behaviors that are the same as someone trying to blow up a plane. This generates a quandry when people that are either confirmed or suspected terrorists are caught by the BDOs (I have no stats on that and if they exist I am quite certain that it would be SSI). Most of the time someone of that nature will NEVER make the news because they will do the snatch and grab and try to ferret out any cohorts or remaining pals before they can do something bad. I can't give you names/dates/anything of that nature, but I have seen the BDO program work, and it does work. Like other processes and procedures, it is not 100% perfect and never will be. I personally never think of 9/11 as an excuse for anything, I think it is and should be an inspiration to people to remember. I think that collectively we as a nation have gotten away from believeing that there are people out there that will do anything to hurt us, we have a very short attention span. Yes a lot of the measures taken by TSA are of a responsive nature and that is not the best way to do business, but the organization is moving forrward in its thinking. The WBI is a good example - whether you agree or disagree - it is a move to try and prevent some of the simpler ways of smuggling things onto a plane (illegal OR destructive). It is an indication that some research just as you asked for - preventative prior to actual application by the "bad" guys - is being done and employed by the organization. Not saying that things are perfect, we as an organization have plenty of room for improvement, but things are being researched to prevent "the next" anything from happening.

They wont respond as they have no answers.

Unless someone has been caught who was intending to blow up a plane, there is no way to know if the above is true.

What you are saying is that they exhibit the same behaviors you BELIEVE a person who is trying to blow up a plane MIGHT display.

You say you have seen the BDO program work, but you also say you don't know if it has actually stopped any terrorists.

Ok, let's just say the WBI isn't "reactive" per se (like much of the other security is). If there had been a WBI in use on 9/11, what would have changed? Nothing. Because the rules in place, the attitudes taken toward hijacking and the commitment of the 19 POS on those planes that day would not have prevented it. (Even without a WBI, without a shoe carnival and without The Great Water Confiscation, 9/11 as it happened would not happen today. Simply securing the flight deck door and instilling a "killer desire" in the passengers would prevent a 9/11-type attack).

The terrorists know the "rules", gsoltso. They aren't going to try to bring on any fingernail clippers, bottles of water, 4.1 oz bottles of shampoo, wear shoes with lifts or bring any snowglobes to the afterlife. They WILL figure out a way to either: a) launch an attack on something that is being completely ignored (hmm, how about the checkpoint line itself or a mall?) or b) figure out a way to use the plane as a weapon within the current rules.

They may make it HARDER, but the TSA cannot prevent a determined terrorist group with a good plan. The country needs to stop thinking of terrorists as Koran-distorting, non-daily-showering, jabbering religious freaks and take them seriously as an ENEMY. For God's sake, Vince Flynn comes up with better terrorist plots as fiction that the TSA imagines it's stopping everyday by throwing away water bottles.

So, if the BDO program has false-positives like the Watch List false-positives, does it mean an even more oppressive screening for EVERYBODY to avoid those positives?

Let's not kid ourselves. When the guy on the west coast (forget where it was....Seattle, Honolulu?) had a shoe that a cobbler left his tool in there, that news spread like wildfire.

When the moron in Tulsa who put a pipe bomb in his carry-on, and was detected, the TSA PR blitz was swift and decisive.

The TSA posts warm and fuzzies about catching a physically challenged person in Orange County with cocaine in his possession during screening.

Considering all of those things that have happened, and the TSA's reaction to them, you can be damn sure the TSA PR force will send out press releases in triplicate to all the newsies and to hell with SSI if the TSA ever made The Big Catch.

I guess one of their hallmark is the quizzing one goes through by the TSA to figure out if you have had a bad day or not. I never have the inclination to spend time chatting with the psychiatrists aka TSA.

I have asked myself everytime I get picked "randomly" to be groped, is it worth being humiliated in this fashion just to earn a living? Even if I quit flying they are chasing every other means of transport. It will not be too long before they setup a table on the freeway to search cars.

Is anyone wondering this as well? Doesn't it seem that the next attack would most likely be something new and inventive, instead of doing the same thing twice?

I'm grateful for the security. At the same time, I would like to see published counts (numbers) and documentation of security threats aborted with the heightened security.

You may be grateful, but you're paying extra for a product that is no more effective than what we had before 9/11.

I agree with you halls120. I should have clarified my comment: some security yes, but not the over zealous reactive intensity that exists now, and a different operation put in place other than TSO, which has become out of control.

Are you serious? I've met only a handful of flight crews I couldn't go through in my sleep armed, with the exception of maybe a FFDO. As the rule the flight deck are the most physically able to resist a hijacking, but even most of them aren't that in shape and able to rock in roll, in my estimation, not to mention there's only two of them and most are unarmed. If I had a handful of armed, trained men, used to killing and working as a team, I would take out 99% of the flight crews I've seen in less than a minute. The only real slow down is the door, to be honest.

Without the door, it's over. Unless you have other armed people in the cabin, close to the door and able to react, be they FFDO, FAM or LEO.

Personally, if I was a hijacker, I'd stack my team all at the front. We'd have a prearranged signal to activate, then all go to work. The front would be pacified before most of FC could put down their Bloody Marys and paperwork and laptops. Their OODA loop wouldn't have time to cycle. One or two FAs? Not an issue. They'd be done quick.

Then there'd be two issues to deal with - 1) holding the line against any of the back pax (or surviving, injured F pax) that made a push and 2) getting the door opened. The door isn't invulnerable, but we'd need time to work. Personally, depending on how big my team was, I might break half off and assault the back. Just go back there and start killing. They wouldn't make it but they'd kill enough to block up the aisle and create chaos and keep people's heads down and give them no time to plot and plan and work up their courage.

That's how I'd do it. Most wouldn't fight back and those that do are impeded by not working together (lack of teamwork and cohesion), lack of training (for most, some will have it), lack of equipment (no real weapons) and environment (depending on config, only one or two aisles (fighting in phone booth - no lateral movement. It's all one fatal funnel)). They're way behind the curve in the OODA loop and that's a killer when someone's trying to serve you death on a cracker. The usual response is to freeze and try and figure out what's going on. This is the wrong response. The correct response is to violently attack the threat and disrupt the team, even though you might not (probably won't) survive. Break their rhythm. I'd put my money in Vegas on maybe a handful (if that) actually doing this. If it does happen, it'll be ex/current military and/or ex-LEOs leading the charge, for the most part.

But very, very few others will (although some might). They don't have the training and/or natural inclination. So they'll try to wait it out and hope to get the rest of the herd/pack/group (whatever you want to call it) to all work together and attack. By that time it will be too late - the hijackers willl have the advantageous position and can ride it out, until their mission is accomplished (whatever that might be (use plane as missle, just crash it, standard hijacking).

But my short answer to your position is that the only crew I'm worried about resisting are FFDOs. The rest are easily handled.