Random CBP APIS Check
Jun 10, 2009 | 8:45 pm
#1
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Random CBP APIS Check
This was posted on another forum (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=192630). It's shocking, to say the least.
"I want to tell you about a recent incident with the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) on my latest trip to Loreto, however, I will first say that as a BBP member I have been flying to Mexico for a few years and never had have any problem or incidents either going, while in Mexico or returning. When the "voluntary" APIS was instituted I began using it voluntary for my 4-5 past trips to Loreto, so I would say that I was well versed in the procedures.
My last trip was on May 22, 2009, with 3 passengers and myself. I filed for my APIS departure approval and immediately received it. My departure airport was Long Beach, Ca (KLGB) which is my home and where I hanger my 210. The flight was direct to Loreto (MMLT).
We got to my hanger about 9:30 AM (local time) preflighted and loaded the aircraft with our bags, pulled the plane out of the hanger, called for fuel and boarded the aircraft after fueling was complete, which was about 10:15 AM. I was going through my pre-start checklist when out of nowhere 7 U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) Cars and Two local Airport Police cars (one County Sheriff and one Long Beach City Officer) came with lights blazing speeding up to in front of my plane, the CBP and Police all jumped out of the cars with weapons drawn and pointing at us (two CBP officers had M-16's the others all had pistols) screaming for us to put our hands on our heads, then ordered us one at a time to get out of the aircraft. My passengers were horrified and frightened to moved, especially to take their hands off their head and unbuckle their seat beats fearing there might be some trigger happy-loose finger behind one of the guns pointing at us.
When we got out of the plane they keep screaming for us to keep our hands on our heads, and then directed us to move in separate directions. Having us separated they commenced with body searching and interrogating us. Questions like "have you ever been arrested", one passenger said once, 20 years ago when I came to California I got a DUI the day I arrived", the response by the CBP Officer to him was "you are lying", the passenger said if "I am lying you tell me when and where I was arrested, because that is the only time". They continued more insulting questioning and later asked other questions such as any drug or weapons in the plane, of course we said no and there were none. More questions, on how we knew each other and how long, where we were going and the purpose of the trip, etc.... Then they made us unload the plane and opened everything, to include our wallets in our pockets. These officers were very-very nasty and hostile, treating us like criminals. I could not believe I was in the USA!! (I have traveled in many Countries and have never EVER been treated like this anywhere!!)
This all went on for about an hour, and then we were told we could put our things back into the plane and we were free to leave. At that time I asked the Senior CBP Officer Arrellano (who appeared to be the one in charge), "what prompted this action", the answer was "It is just a random check". I then asked "do I have this to look forward now under the new APIS system every time I go to fly out of Country", his answer was I don't know this is a random check, your tail Number came up and here we are. The 7 CBP Officers had to drive down from LAX to KLGB to do this "random search", matter-of-fact, one of the officers later commented that they had to "really hurry leaving LAX because they almost missed us".
I was going to let this go, however, I have talked to several Sworn Officers/Law enforcement people from Federal level to local level, all of which have told me, in their opinion i f the facts are as mentioned above (which they are), they felt that these officers were totally out of line in drawing weapons and putting us in jeopardy, especially for a "random check". Most told me in order to draw weapons they must have "probable Cause" that they or someone was in danger. If there was such "probable cause", I would like to know what the hell it was?
I have no problem with the random check, other than being a pain in the ***. The problem I have is that they drew weapons putting our lives at risk unnecessarily, along with the fact they could not deal with us like human beings and Citizens of this Country! I only hope no one else has to go through this BS!!!
We did depart, although a little frazzled, a little over an hour later. At this point, thinking back on this I am getting madder and madder over this and would like to file a complaint. Could you direct me to the person I can file a complaint with?"Someone else on the board hypothesized that since APIS was made mandatory only 4 days prior to the events above, something got screwed up. What are your thoughts on this?
"I want to tell you about a recent incident with the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) on my latest trip to Loreto, however, I will first say that as a BBP member I have been flying to Mexico for a few years and never had have any problem or incidents either going, while in Mexico or returning. When the "voluntary" APIS was instituted I began using it voluntary for my 4-5 past trips to Loreto, so I would say that I was well versed in the procedures.
My last trip was on May 22, 2009, with 3 passengers and myself. I filed for my APIS departure approval and immediately received it. My departure airport was Long Beach, Ca (KLGB) which is my home and where I hanger my 210. The flight was direct to Loreto (MMLT).
We got to my hanger about 9:30 AM (local time) preflighted and loaded the aircraft with our bags, pulled the plane out of the hanger, called for fuel and boarded the aircraft after fueling was complete, which was about 10:15 AM. I was going through my pre-start checklist when out of nowhere 7 U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) Cars and Two local Airport Police cars (one County Sheriff and one Long Beach City Officer) came with lights blazing speeding up to in front of my plane, the CBP and Police all jumped out of the cars with weapons drawn and pointing at us (two CBP officers had M-16's the others all had pistols) screaming for us to put our hands on our heads, then ordered us one at a time to get out of the aircraft. My passengers were horrified and frightened to moved, especially to take their hands off their head and unbuckle their seat beats fearing there might be some trigger happy-loose finger behind one of the guns pointing at us.
When we got out of the plane they keep screaming for us to keep our hands on our heads, and then directed us to move in separate directions. Having us separated they commenced with body searching and interrogating us. Questions like "have you ever been arrested", one passenger said once, 20 years ago when I came to California I got a DUI the day I arrived", the response by the CBP Officer to him was "you are lying", the passenger said if "I am lying you tell me when and where I was arrested, because that is the only time". They continued more insulting questioning and later asked other questions such as any drug or weapons in the plane, of course we said no and there were none. More questions, on how we knew each other and how long, where we were going and the purpose of the trip, etc.... Then they made us unload the plane and opened everything, to include our wallets in our pockets. These officers were very-very nasty and hostile, treating us like criminals. I could not believe I was in the USA!! (I have traveled in many Countries and have never EVER been treated like this anywhere!!)
This all went on for about an hour, and then we were told we could put our things back into the plane and we were free to leave. At that time I asked the Senior CBP Officer Arrellano (who appeared to be the one in charge), "what prompted this action", the answer was "It is just a random check". I then asked "do I have this to look forward now under the new APIS system every time I go to fly out of Country", his answer was I don't know this is a random check, your tail Number came up and here we are. The 7 CBP Officers had to drive down from LAX to KLGB to do this "random search", matter-of-fact, one of the officers later commented that they had to "really hurry leaving LAX because they almost missed us".
I was going to let this go, however, I have talked to several Sworn Officers/Law enforcement people from Federal level to local level, all of which have told me, in their opinion i f the facts are as mentioned above (which they are), they felt that these officers were totally out of line in drawing weapons and putting us in jeopardy, especially for a "random check". Most told me in order to draw weapons they must have "probable Cause" that they or someone was in danger. If there was such "probable cause", I would like to know what the hell it was?
I have no problem with the random check, other than being a pain in the ***. The problem I have is that they drew weapons putting our lives at risk unnecessarily, along with the fact they could not deal with us like human beings and Citizens of this Country! I only hope no one else has to go through this BS!!!
We did depart, although a little frazzled, a little over an hour later. At this point, thinking back on this I am getting madder and madder over this and would like to file a complaint. Could you direct me to the person I can file a complaint with?"
Jun 10, 2009 | 11:06 pm
#3
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Sounds like you were actually treated to something closer to a felony stop than a random check.
It's nonsense like this that is the reason that more people should carry concealed (legally).
It's nonsense like this that is the reason that more people should carry concealed (legally).
Jun 11, 2009 | 12:16 am
#5
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Jun 11, 2009 | 1:57 am
#6
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LAX
Posts: 453
The majority of people in LA county who can legally conceal carry are LEO so it wouldn't have made much difference.
Jun 11, 2009 | 7:12 am
#7
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 628
Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.
Jun 11, 2009 | 7:42 am
#8
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Not sure I see the violation. CBP has every right to search outbound planes and passengers. And they are also free to unholster their weapons if they see a need to do so. (No, there is no probable cause requirement for that.)
Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.
Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.
If he is not willing to file the complaint then I would question his version of the story.
Jun 11, 2009 | 8:07 am
#9
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Sounds like the CBP were ramped up on their drug of choice, adrenaline, and chose a soft target to practice on. Just hope no one ever gets shot by mistake by these Rambo rejects.
Jun 11, 2009 | 8:24 am
#10
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: TPA,DTW
Posts: 254
If he is serious in filing a complaint, file FOIA requests for dash cam video and audio of the entire incident including the police incident reports from the Sheriff and Long Beach City PD cruisers and officers they had on scene. My guess is it would be slightly easier getting the info via FOIA from those agencies than getting tied up in red tape with with a FOIA through CBP.
Jun 11, 2009 | 8:25 am
#11
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,006
Not sure I see the violation. CBP has every right to search outbound planes and passengers. And they are also free to unholster their weapons if they see a need to do so. (No, there is no probable cause requirement for that.)
Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.
Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.
By drawing their weapons in order to facilitate an ADMINISTRATIVE search makes both the seizure and the search UNreasonable. (4th Amendment)
Because the seizure was unreasonable the pilot and passengers were denied their liberty by CBP officers without due process. (10th Amendment)
Because the seizure was unreasonable the pilot and passengers were denied their liberty by Long Beach police officers without due process. (14th Amendment)
Jun 11, 2009 | 11:49 am
#12
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Whatever happened to only pointing your gun at things you want to kill?
Jun 11, 2009 | 12:00 pm
#13
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That pilot should get in touch with AOPA.
Jun 11, 2009 | 1:00 pm
#14
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If I were to point a gun at somebody without a legally justifiable reason I would be jailed for assault.
Why shouldn't LEO's be subject to the same standard?
I have no problem with LEO's defending themselves, but why are they allowed to routinely threaten and endanger people like this absent any threat to themselves?
Why shouldn't LEO's be subject to the same standard?
I have no problem with LEO's defending themselves, but why are they allowed to routinely threaten and endanger people like this absent any threat to themselves?