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-   -   Random CBP APIS Check (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/963530-random-cbp-apis-check.html)

planedude86 Jun 10, 2009 8:45 pm

Random CBP APIS Check
 
This was posted on another forum (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=192630). It's shocking, to say the least.

"I want to tell you about a recent incident with the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) on my latest trip to Loreto, however, I will first say that as a BBP member I have been flying to Mexico for a few years and never had have any problem or incidents either going, while in Mexico or returning. When the "voluntary" APIS was instituted I began using it voluntary for my 4-5 past trips to Loreto, so I would say that I was well versed in the procedures.

My last trip was on May 22, 2009, with 3 passengers and myself. I filed for my APIS departure approval and immediately received it. My departure airport was Long Beach, Ca (KLGB) which is my home and where I hanger my 210. The flight was direct to Loreto (MMLT).
We got to my hanger about 9:30 AM (local time) preflighted and loaded the aircraft with our bags, pulled the plane out of the hanger, called for fuel and boarded the aircraft after fueling was complete, which was about 10:15 AM. I was going through my pre-start checklist when out of nowhere 7 U.S. Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) Cars and Two local Airport Police cars (one County Sheriff and one Long Beach City Officer) came with lights blazing speeding up to in front of my plane, the CBP and Police all jumped out of the cars with weapons drawn and pointing at us (two CBP officers had M-16's the others all had pistols) screaming for us to put our hands on our heads, then ordered us one at a time to get out of the aircraft. My passengers were horrified and frightened to moved, especially to take their hands off their head and unbuckle their seat beats fearing there might be some trigger happy-loose finger behind one of the guns pointing at us.

When we got out of the plane they keep screaming for us to keep our hands on our heads, and then directed us to move in separate directions. Having us separated they commenced with body searching and interrogating us. Questions like "have you ever been arrested", one passenger said once, 20 years ago when I came to California I got a DUI the day I arrived", the response by the CBP Officer to him was "you are lying", the passenger said if "I am lying you tell me when and where I was arrested, because that is the only time". They continued more insulting questioning and later asked other questions such as any drug or weapons in the plane, of course we said no and there were none. More questions, on how we knew each other and how long, where we were going and the purpose of the trip, etc.... Then they made us unload the plane and opened everything, to include our wallets in our pockets. These officers were very-very nasty and hostile, treating us like criminals. I could not believe I was in the USA!! (I have traveled in many Countries and have never EVER been treated like this anywhere!!)

This all went on for about an hour, and then we were told we could put our things back into the plane and we were free to leave. At that time I asked the Senior CBP Officer Arrellano (who appeared to be the one in charge), "what prompted this action", the answer was "It is just a random check". I then asked "do I have this to look forward now under the new APIS system every time I go to fly out of Country", his answer was I don't know this is a random check, your tail Number came up and here we are. The 7 CBP Officers had to drive down from LAX to KLGB to do this "random search", matter-of-fact, one of the officers later commented that they had to "really hurry leaving LAX because they almost missed us".

I was going to let this go, however, I have talked to several Sworn Officers/Law enforcement people from Federal level to local level, all of which have told me, in their opinion i f the facts are as mentioned above (which they are), they felt that these officers were totally out of line in drawing weapons and putting us in jeopardy, especially for a "random check". Most told me in order to draw weapons they must have "probable Cause" that they or someone was in danger. If there was such "probable cause", I would like to know what the hell it was?

I have no problem with the random check, other than being a pain in the ***. The problem I have is that they drew weapons putting our lives at risk unnecessarily, along with the fact they could not deal with us like human beings and Citizens of this Country! I only hope no one else has to go through this BS!!!

We did depart, although a little frazzled, a little over an hour later. At this point, thinking back on this I am getting madder and madder over this and would like to file a complaint. Could you direct me to the person I can file a complaint with?"
Someone else on the board hypothesized that since APIS was made mandatory only 4 days prior to the events above, something got screwed up. What are your thoughts on this?

Trollkiller Jun 10, 2009 10:39 pm

I think the poster should be calling for blood and filing a lawsuit for the officers violating several rights. The 4th, 5th, 14th Amendment's rights come to mind.

Spiff Jun 10, 2009 11:06 pm

Sounds like you were actually treated to something closer to a felony stop than a random check.

It's nonsense like this that is the reason that more people should carry concealed (legally).

KCK Jun 10, 2009 11:58 pm


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 11888955)
Sounds like you were actually treated to something closer to a felony stop than a random check.

It's nonsense like this that is the reason that more people should carry concealed (legally).

How so?

Spiff Jun 11, 2009 12:16 am


Originally Posted by KCK (Post 11889099)
How so?

Because maybe if these idiots realized that someone might not take too kindly to this kind of abuse, especially if the idiots forgot to identify themselves as law enforcement officers, they might think twice before initiating such harassment.

Taker Park Jun 11, 2009 1:57 am


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 11888955)
Sounds like you were actually treated to something closer to a felony stop than a random check.

It's nonsense like this that is the reason that more people should carry concealed (legally).

The majority of people in LA county who can legally conceal carry are LEO so it wouldn't have made much difference.

Deeg Jun 11, 2009 7:12 am


Originally Posted by Trollkiller (Post 11888893)
I think the poster should be calling for blood and filing a lawsuit for the officers violating several rights. The 4th, 5th, 14th Amendment's rights come to mind.

Not sure I see the violation. CBP has every right to search outbound planes and passengers. And they are also free to unholster their weapons if they see a need to do so. (No, there is no probable cause requirement for that.)

Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.

Boggie Dog Jun 11, 2009 7:42 am


Originally Posted by Deeg (Post 11890083)
Not sure I see the violation. CBP has every right to search outbound planes and passengers. And they are also free to unholster their weapons if they see a need to do so. (No, there is no probable cause requirement for that.)

Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.

If the pilots story is accurate then a complaint that is heard in a court of law would get the facts out.

If he is not willing to file the complaint then I would question his version of the story.

AngryMiller Jun 11, 2009 8:07 am


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 11890224)
If the pilots story is accurate then a complaint that is heard in a court of law would get the facts out.

If he is not willing to file the complaint then I would question his version of the story.

Sounds like the CBP were ramped up on their drug of choice, adrenaline, and chose a soft target to practice on. Just hope no one ever gets shot by mistake by these Rambo rejects.

Spence1097 Jun 11, 2009 8:24 am

If he is serious in filing a complaint, file FOIA requests for dash cam video and audio of the entire incident including the police incident reports from the Sheriff and Long Beach City PD cruisers and officers they had on scene. My guess is it would be slightly easier getting the info via FOIA from those agencies than getting tied up in red tape with with a FOIA through CBP.

Trollkiller Jun 11, 2009 8:25 am


Originally Posted by Deeg (Post 11890083)
Not sure I see the violation. CBP has every right to search outbound planes and passengers. And they are also free to unholster their weapons if they see a need to do so. (No, there is no probable cause requirement for that.)

Of course, there is a very legitimate complaint about the way they were treated. If you accept it at face value. If you read the news articles (for example, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._200528-1.html) you will see that the CBP officers in question don't even have rifles. At a minimum, there is some dispute over what actually happened and who did what.

Even if you go by CBP's version of events, weapons were drawn and a LEO (local, state & federal) definitely has to have a good reason to draw his weapon.

By drawing their weapons in order to facilitate an ADMINISTRATIVE search makes both the seizure and the search UNreasonable. (4th Amendment)

Because the seizure was unreasonable the pilot and passengers were denied their liberty by CBP officers without due process. (10th Amendment)

Because the seizure was unreasonable the pilot and passengers were denied their liberty by Long Beach police officers without due process. (14th Amendment)

ralfp Jun 11, 2009 11:49 am


Originally Posted by Deeg (Post 11890083)
Not sure I see the violation. CBP has every right to search outbound planes and passengers. And they are also free to unholster their weapons if they see a need to do so. (No, there is no probable cause requirement for that.)

What's the legal justification for such searches (i.e. what logic did courts use to claim that such searches are constitutionally permissible?) Searches of inbound aircraft... that I can understand (sort of), but outbound?

Whatever happened to only pointing your gun at things you want to kill?

N965VJ Jun 11, 2009 12:00 pm

That pilot should get in touch with AOPA.

Top Tier Jun 11, 2009 1:00 pm

If I were to point a gun at somebody without a legally justifiable reason I would be jailed for assault.

Why shouldn't LEO's be subject to the same standard?

I have no problem with LEO's defending themselves, but why are they allowed to routinely threaten and endanger people like this absent any threat to themselves?

etch5895 Jun 11, 2009 1:07 pm

If true, it is further evidence that CBP needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up with the focus on customer service.


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