"Our job is to stop a terrorist attack."
Jul 25, 2008 | 8:21 am
#16
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CLT
Posts: 7,249
Gosh, I thought TSA's job is mission creep from CBP.
I've seen them ask a lady who presented a US passport to show her "other" passport which was one from a Latin American country. I thought for the purpose of TSA ID=ID and visas shouldn't matter.
Yesterday I saw the lady in ROC thoroughly examining the Mexican passports for 2 business men in front of me. It took about a minute and thirty seconds each to determine something. Maybe they didn't look "Mexican" enough to her b/c they were white
.
I've seen them ask a lady who presented a US passport to show her "other" passport which was one from a Latin American country. I thought for the purpose of TSA ID=ID and visas shouldn't matter.
Yesterday I saw the lady in ROC thoroughly examining the Mexican passports for 2 business men in front of me. It took about a minute and thirty seconds each to determine something. Maybe they didn't look "Mexican" enough to her b/c they were white
.
Jul 25, 2008 | 8:22 am
#17
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
Jul 25, 2008 | 8:24 am
#18
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CLT
Posts: 7,249
to TSA it seems like Terrorist = a person of middle eastern descent. I need to start filling out comment cards when I see such behavior b/c I have seen Middle Eastern or Indian people being treated differently than others in line. Not everywhere though...but I have seen it.
Jul 25, 2008 | 8:40 am
#19
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Okay, just for the fun of it, I hit up dictionary.com for a definition of terrorist. I got the following two that seemed applicable:
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
Definition #1 requires me to look up the definition of "terrorism." Definition #2 sounds like, well, a certain group whose mission is apparently to stop a terrorist attack.
So let's move on to the dictionary of terrorism. Here are the definitions:
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
Interesting. Again, I'm more concerned with a certain body that may not use violence but certainly uses threats to intimidate or coerce.
No, I'm not calling the TSOs terrorists. But it does seem interesting how the definitions relate to Ms. Rossides's speech and the role of the TSA.
Mike
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
Definition #1 requires me to look up the definition of "terrorism." Definition #2 sounds like, well, a certain group whose mission is apparently to stop a terrorist attack.
So let's move on to the dictionary of terrorism. Here are the definitions:
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
Interesting. Again, I'm more concerned with a certain body that may not use violence but certainly uses threats to intimidate or coerce.
No, I'm not calling the TSOs terrorists. But it does seem interesting how the definitions relate to Ms. Rossides's speech and the role of the TSA.
Mike
Jul 25, 2008 | 8:53 am
#20
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,439
line between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is a political one
Quoting John Gilmore's "Gilmore v. Ashcroft -- FAA ID challenge FAQ" (which I highly recommend reading):
I completely agree with these statements. Patriotic Americans should resist this practice of restricting people's movements based on blacklists.
Q. So then how should we figure out who is a terrorist?
It's a good question, that goes to the heart of the post-9/11 civil liberties issues.
Who is a terrorist? Any IRA member from the last twenty years? A member of the Irgun (led by former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin)? Nelson Mandela, imprisoned for sabotage for 27 years by the South African government? A WTO protester? The US Government killed more Afghani civilians in the last year than the number of US people killed on 9/11; does that make US soldiers terrorists? Israel and Palestine both claim that the other is terrorist. So do India and Pakistan. So do leftists and rightists in Colombia.
Ultimately the line between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is a political one. Our freedom to travel should not depend on a politician's decision about whether they agree with our aims or not. Every "anti-terrorist" measure restricts people based on their politics, not just based on whether they use violence. Violence was already illegal.
In other words, any list of "terrorists" will inevitably contain many individuals that have never committed a terrorist act, and not contain many individuals that have actually committed a terrorist act.
Q. Isn't an ID check needed to stop known terrorists from flying?
If we knew who the terrorists were, we could just arrest them all, rather than stopping them when they try to fly. So what do you mean by "a known terrorist"? A previously convicted hijacker? A card-carrying member of Al-Queda? A Green Party member, who seeks to change our established form of government? Someone on probation, convicted of non-violent civil disobedience for protesting the Star Wars program at Vandenberg Air Force Base? A member of Earth First!?
There is good reason to believe that any list of "known terrorists" contains "suspected" terrorists, not actual terrorists, and is full of errors besides. Particularly when the list is secret and neither the press nor the public can examine it for errors or political biases.
"Johnnie Thomas" was on the watch list because a 28-year-old "FBI Most Wanted" man, Christian Michael Longo, used that name as an alias. But Longo was arrested two days after joining the "Most Wanted" list for murdering his family. After he had been in custody for months, 70-year-old black grandma "Johnnie Thomas" gets stopped every time she tries to fly. Her story is in the May 2002 issue of New Yorker magazine. It's not clear why an ordinary criminal like Longo was on the list in the first place -- nor why he wasn't removed from the list when he was captured two days later. What is clear is that this secret watch-list is poorly controlled and ripe for abuse. And, of course, there is no guarantee that an actual terrorist would be carrying their real ID.
There are many ways to deter terrorism, but checking IDs against a watch list is not one of them. It is an exercise in futility that provides a false sense of security.
It's a good question, that goes to the heart of the post-9/11 civil liberties issues.
Who is a terrorist? Any IRA member from the last twenty years? A member of the Irgun (led by former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin)? Nelson Mandela, imprisoned for sabotage for 27 years by the South African government? A WTO protester? The US Government killed more Afghani civilians in the last year than the number of US people killed on 9/11; does that make US soldiers terrorists? Israel and Palestine both claim that the other is terrorist. So do India and Pakistan. So do leftists and rightists in Colombia.
Ultimately the line between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is a political one. Our freedom to travel should not depend on a politician's decision about whether they agree with our aims or not. Every "anti-terrorist" measure restricts people based on their politics, not just based on whether they use violence. Violence was already illegal.
In other words, any list of "terrorists" will inevitably contain many individuals that have never committed a terrorist act, and not contain many individuals that have actually committed a terrorist act.
Q. Isn't an ID check needed to stop known terrorists from flying?
If we knew who the terrorists were, we could just arrest them all, rather than stopping them when they try to fly. So what do you mean by "a known terrorist"? A previously convicted hijacker? A card-carrying member of Al-Queda? A Green Party member, who seeks to change our established form of government? Someone on probation, convicted of non-violent civil disobedience for protesting the Star Wars program at Vandenberg Air Force Base? A member of Earth First!?
There is good reason to believe that any list of "known terrorists" contains "suspected" terrorists, not actual terrorists, and is full of errors besides. Particularly when the list is secret and neither the press nor the public can examine it for errors or political biases.
"Johnnie Thomas" was on the watch list because a 28-year-old "FBI Most Wanted" man, Christian Michael Longo, used that name as an alias. But Longo was arrested two days after joining the "Most Wanted" list for murdering his family. After he had been in custody for months, 70-year-old black grandma "Johnnie Thomas" gets stopped every time she tries to fly. Her story is in the May 2002 issue of New Yorker magazine. It's not clear why an ordinary criminal like Longo was on the list in the first place -- nor why he wasn't removed from the list when he was captured two days later. What is clear is that this secret watch-list is poorly controlled and ripe for abuse. And, of course, there is no guarantee that an actual terrorist would be carrying their real ID.
There are many ways to deter terrorism, but checking IDs against a watch list is not one of them. It is an exercise in futility that provides a false sense of security.
Jul 25, 2008 | 8:59 am
#21
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Terrorist = A concept that keeps TSA and DHS in business.
License to Harasssssss innocent people.
TSA/DHS = Welfare Program.
Real definition today:
Terrorist(s) = DHS/TSA [and their Boss(es)]
Jul 25, 2008 | 10:23 am
#22
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Okay, just for the fun of it, I hit up dictionary.com for a definition of terrorist. I got the following two that seemed applicable:
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
Definition #1 requires me to look up the definition of "terrorism." Definition #2 sounds like, well, a certain group whose mission is apparently to stop a terrorist attack.
So let's move on to the dictionary of terrorism. Here are the definitions:
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
Interesting. Again, I'm more concerned with a certain body that may not use violence but certainly uses threats to intimidate or coerce.
No, I'm not calling the TSOs terrorists. But it does seem interesting how the definitions relate to Ms. Rossides's speech and the role of the TSA.
Mike
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
Definition #1 requires me to look up the definition of "terrorism." Definition #2 sounds like, well, a certain group whose mission is apparently to stop a terrorist attack.
So let's move on to the dictionary of terrorism. Here are the definitions:
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
Interesting. Again, I'm more concerned with a certain body that may not use violence but certainly uses threats to intimidate or coerce.
No, I'm not calling the TSOs terrorists. But it does seem interesting how the definitions relate to Ms. Rossides's speech and the role of the TSA.
Mike
By these definitions, the Government that Americans elected is a terrorist entity. That makes all Americans that voted for this governement material supporters of terrorism and those who did not vote but who pay taxes, financiers of terrorism. I think you should all spend the next 12 years in Guantanamo.
Last edited by PhlyingRPh; Jul 25, 2008 at 10:38 am Reason: removed smiley
Jul 25, 2008 | 10:35 am
#23
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Gosh, I thought TSA's job is mission creep from CBP.
I've seen them ask a lady who presented a US passport to show her "other" passport which was one from a Latin American country. I thought for the purpose of TSA ID=ID and visas shouldn't matter.
Yesterday I saw the lady in ROC thoroughly examining the Mexican passports for 2 business men in front of me. It took about a minute and thirty seconds each to determine something. Maybe they didn't look "Mexican" enough to her b/c they were white.
I've seen them ask a lady who presented a US passport to show her "other" passport which was one from a Latin American country. I thought for the purpose of TSA ID=ID and visas shouldn't matter.
Yesterday I saw the lady in ROC thoroughly examining the Mexican passports for 2 business men in front of me. It took about a minute and thirty seconds each to determine something. Maybe they didn't look "Mexican" enough to her b/c they were white
.
Jul 25, 2008 | 10:49 am
#24
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,064
I think I'd be relatively happy if TSA would focus on stopping terrorist attacks instead of focusing on catching a non-regulation tube of toothpaste. If they were less distracted looking for my 500 ml bottle of water that I picked up at NRT and forgot to remove from my bag prior to re-clearing security for my connecting flight, they might be more likely to catch something that would actually be harmful.
BTW, TSA has not yet discovered any prohibited items I have accidentally put in my carry on, including the aforementioned bottle of water.
BTW, TSA has not yet discovered any prohibited items I have accidentally put in my carry on, including the aforementioned bottle of water.
Jul 25, 2008 | 11:18 am
#25
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 562
Obviously Timothy McVey and the Unabomber aren't in their definition.
to TSA it seems like Terrorist = a person of middle eastern descent. I need to start filling out comment cards when I see such behavior b/c I have seen Middle Eastern or Indian people being treated differently than others in line. Not everywhere though...but I have seen it.
to TSA it seems like Terrorist = a person of middle eastern descent. I need to start filling out comment cards when I see such behavior b/c I have seen Middle Eastern or Indian people being treated differently than others in line. Not everywhere though...but I have seen it.
I didn't read anything about them being Middle Eastern or Indian.
Jul 25, 2008 | 12:52 pm
#26
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On the other hand, if they are amateurs, members of the public, etc, etc, why hasn't this extensive net of technological surveilance managed to shake a few amateur mistakes loose?
EIther way, shouldn't the police be responsible for identifying and stopping criminal activity??
Jul 25, 2008 | 1:18 pm
#27
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I'll say it bluntly, the TSA IS a terrorist group, they terorrize citizens of the US on a daily basis through fear and fright.
The IRS is also a terrorist group.
Main Entry:
ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
— ter·ror·is·tic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective
Main Entry:
ter·ror
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər, ˈte-rər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrēre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble — more at tremble
Date:
14th century
1: a state of intense fear 2 a: one that inspires fear : scourge b: a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c: a cause of anxiety : worry d: an appalling person or thing; especially : brat3: reign of terror4: violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>
The IRS is also a terrorist group.
Main Entry:
ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun
— ter·ror·is·tic \ˌter-ər-ˈis-tik\ adjective
Main Entry:
ter·ror
Pronunciation:
\ˈter-ər, ˈte-rər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrēre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble — more at tremble
Date:
14th century
1: a state of intense fear 2 a: one that inspires fear : scourge b: a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c: a cause of anxiety : worry d: an appalling person or thing; especially : brat3: reign of terror4: violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>
Jul 26, 2008 | 12:10 am
#28
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,064
What terrorist attacks? Where are these terrorists that everyone thinks are hiding all over the place? If they are so shrewd, cunning and well trainied, why haven't they done anything yet.
On the other hand, if they are amateurs, members of the public, etc, etc, why hasn't this extensive net of technological surveilance managed to shake a few amateur mistakes loose?
EIther way, shouldn't the police be responsible for identifying and stopping criminal activity??
On the other hand, if they are amateurs, members of the public, etc, etc, why hasn't this extensive net of technological surveilance managed to shake a few amateur mistakes loose?
EIther way, shouldn't the police be responsible for identifying and stopping criminal activity??
Jul 29, 2008 | 5:47 am
#29
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How could they forget to name the TSA in the referenced report http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080729/...pe/us_al_qaida as a premier, successful counterterrorism effort? 
Since the TSA's "job is to stop terrorist attacks", how could they forget these people "on the frontline" in the "war on terror"!
Since the TSA's "job is to stop terrorist attacks", how could they forget these people "on the frontline" in the "war on terror"!
Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 29, 2008 at 5:54 am
Jul 29, 2008 | 6:01 am
#30
Join Date: Oct 2006
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