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-   -   PHL Shoe Incident (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-security-issues/830893-phl-shoe-incident.html)

DevilDog438 Jun 6, 2008 4:02 pm


Originally Posted by oneofthosepeopleyouloveto hate (Post 9838861)
No. We have procedures for screening them that do not involve removal. For more information:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...rial_1370.shtm

Yes - and per that page it clearly states in the Orthopedic shoes section:


Security Officers should not be asking you to remove your orthopedic shoes, appliances, or medical device (insulin pump, feeding tube, ostomy or urine bag, or exterior component of cochlear implant) at any time during the screening process.
(emphasis mine)

ND Sol Jun 6, 2008 4:52 pm


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9838122)
You are incorrect.

MNAA operates as a public corporation. We operate without local tax dollars, are self-financing within an annual, balanced budget, and have a bonding authority.

The board of commissioners sets policy. The President and staff recommend implement policy, develop administrative procedures and operate, maintain, plan & develop the Airports

The Authority collects fees, rentals, rates and other charges from airport users.

Since we service commerical air carriers we are obviously bound by Federal regulations through the FAA & TSA.

For those persons who cause a problem at the facility, but nothing severe enough to be criminal, we tell them to leave or they risk being arrested for trespassing. It has been that way since our airport's existence. Our property, our rules. Just because it is open to the public, does not mean that it is there at your expense to do whatever you want.

Aside from the main airport terminal, we also own commercial buildings, roads, and residential housing. ;)

I am not incorrect. The MNAA is a quasi-governmental entity. It is not like GE, GM or IBM, each of which has shareholders. After all the Board of Commissioners is the mayor and nine others appointed by the mayor. This is not dissimilar to how many other airports are run. Your airport is not privatized.

The restrictions contained in the Constitution against governments impinging individuals' rights are applicable to the MNAA. As such, the right to evict someone off MNAA property is a much higher standard than an owner of a retail store evicting an individual. The standard for removal from MNAA property accessible to the public is akin to removing someone from a public sidewalk.

SgtScott31 Jun 6, 2008 8:06 pm


Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 9839131)
I am not incorrect. The MNAA is a quasi-governmental entity. It is not like GE, GM or IBM, each of which has shareholders. After all the Board of Commissioners is the mayor and nine others appointed by the mayor. This is not dissimilar to how many other airports are run. Your airport is not privatized.

The restrictions contained in the Constitution against governments impinging individuals' rights are applicable to the MNAA. As such, the right to evict someone off MNAA property is a much higher standard than an owner of a retail store evicting an individual. The standard for removal from MNAA property accessible to the public is akin to removing someone from a public sidewalk.

Although quasi-government, we are also quasi-private. I do not see as needing a "higher standard" to remove someone off of our property. We can remove (or ban) anyone from those loitering, to cabbie's, to folks who attempt to operate on property without a permit. Bottom line, if you are at the airport strictly to photograph (and not there for any airport-related business) and you do not get clearance from the proper MNAA representatives, you will be escorted off property. If you refuse, then you risk being arrested for trespassing. I imagine you can stand on a city sidewalk anyday and take as many photographs as you want without being bothered by LEOs. Not the same in my book.

ND Sol Jun 6, 2008 8:34 pm


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9839908)
Although quasi-government, we are also quasi-private. I do not see as needing a "higher standard" to remove someone off of our property. We can remove (or ban) anyone from those loitering, to cabbie's, to folks who attempt to operate on property without a permit. Bottom line, if you are at the airport strictly to photograph (and not there for any airport-related business) and you do not get clearance from the proper MNAA representatives, you will be escorted off property. If you refuse, then you risk being arrested for trespassing. I imagine you can stand on a city sidewalk anyday and take as many photographs as you want without being bothered by LEOs. Not the same in my book.

If you don't see the higher standard, then you don't understand constitutional law. An example - a retail store does not have to set aside space for a person to do soliciting; your airport does. And on a public sidewalk you can also remove those loitering and those using the sidewalk to run a business. Not much difference.

This primer on photography rights might help. And no, BNA is not quasi-private.

Cee Jun 6, 2008 10:42 pm


Originally Posted by greggwiggins (Post 9838321)
Cee, That could be done with a long lens from outside the checkpoint. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I am curious how that would interfere?

That wouldn't interfere. I am talking about people taking pictures within the CP.


Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 9837429)
If it always interferes, then the SOP should state that no pictures are permitted at the screening checkpoint instead of allowing discretion, which you don't believe exists. The SOP, however, doesn't say that. So your blanket statement that it always interferes is unreasonable.
In my experience, a person trying to take photos in the checkpoint always interferes. They are in the way.

Does your checkpoint have security cameras? Any problems with those?

Yep, we got lots of cameras. They are on the ceiling, and you don't even notice that they are there. They don't crowd around the handwand stations, with 18 carryon bags spread out on the floor around them, asking TSO's to pose and smile, while blocking the flow of passengers who just want to go. If you can Spiderman it up to the ceiling to take photos...have at it.

sinanju Jun 6, 2008 10:54 pm


Originally Posted by Cee (Post 9840388)
Yep, we got lots of cameras. They are on the ceiling, and you don't even notice that they are there. They don't crowd around the handwand stations, with 18 carryon bags spread out on the floor around them, asking TSO's to pose and smile, while blocking the flow of passengers who just want to go. If you can Spiderman it up to the ceiling to take photos...have at it.

Ah... so the real issue is that photography does not always interfere, but does when it blocks traffic.

So, by your reasoning, if traffic is already blocked by an unreasonable TSO insisting on the removal of orthopedics and intentionally concealing their credentials... all should be fine for a pic, correct?

EDIT: I'll go further and suggest that TSO credetials should be worn with an apparatus that does not permit concealment. Chains should be disallowed. Only mechanisms that present credentials to the fore at all times to all observers should be permitted. In my army days, my response to the one or two disciplinary threats I received in my 6 year contract was "make sure you spell my name correctly on the report." None were submitted.

Cee Jun 6, 2008 11:12 pm


Originally Posted by sinanju (Post 9840414)
Ah... so the real issue is that photography does not always interfere, but does when it blocks traffic.

So, by your reasoning, if traffic is already blocked by an unreasonable TSO insisting on the removal of orthopedics and intentionally concealing their credentials... all should be fine for a pic, correct?

EDIT: I'll go further and suggest that TSO credetials should be worn with an apparatus that does not permit concealment. Chains should be disallowed. Only mechanisms that present credentials to the fore at all times to all observers should be permitted. In my army days, my response to the one or two disciplinary threats I received in my 6 year contract was "make sure you spell my name correctly on the report."

In my experience, it doesn't happen that often that people want to take pictures in the screening area, but it has always interfered. I have never agreed with TSO's insisting on the removal or orthotics, nor have I ever agreed with TSO's hiding their name badges. Don't put words in my mouth. Stick to the topic at hand.

Boston_Bulldog Jun 7, 2008 1:06 am


Originally Posted by CPT Trips (Post 9825579)
Anyone know who else at TSA I should send the following email and what email addresses to use?

email

On May 25 in PHL, checkpoint A (near the low numbered domestic gates), I experienced improper and impolite TSA conduct. This was the direct result of TSA screening personnel not communicating with each other. at approximately 7:30-8 am I went through security, told the person at the WTMD I had ortho shoes and he correctly directed me to the glass door for the shoe swab. He did not say anything to the male assist person (Danny 95013) who came to the door of the glass room. Danny asked me why I was there. I replied, "for a shoe swab."

Rather than ask the WTMD person why I was there Danny proceded to insist I remove my shoes. When I refused and told him they were ortho, he proceeded to berate me. And told me the magic words - "If you want to fly today you have to remove your shoes."

I asked for a supervisor after Tarik came and also insisted I remove my shoes - the supervisor (Rhonda) also told me that I wasn't going to fly unless I removed my shoes. At that point I reminded her that your own web site and blog state that ortho shoes do not have to be removed and maybe it was time to get someone higher up as well as someone from the airline. after a lot of conversation between us, Rhonda told Danny that I had a medical reason and just swab my shoes. The statement that she should have made when she first can into the situation.

At the end of this, I asked for a comment card. At first I was told they did not have any. Then a women in plain clothes said I had to give her my photo ID to get the card. I told her that your blog regularly addresses this issue and that comment cards are supposed to be readily available at all checkpoints. She still would not give me a card, asserting that,'if a police officer asked for ID I would have to show it." Of course, I reminded her she was not a police officer, and I that because the cards dangling from her lanyard, were turned around and not readable, I had no idea who or what she was. After more conversation including her telling me it was none of my business who she was, she told me her name was Lisa. But she never turned her ID so it was visible.

The persons involved in this incident were all unprofessional, nasty and did not follow the procedures posted on your web site and blog. None of their actions, except for swabbing my shoes enhanced security in any way.

I briefly outlined these events on the comment card I was given and turned it back in. I am concerned that one of the participants in the incident "deep sixed" my comments, so now that I have returned home, I am sending this follow up email.

I may be contacted at


I plan to send copies to my Congressman, the candidates running to replace him and my Senators.

It was interesting that several pax came up to me and to discuss what happened and why I spent the time to deal with the screeners. I basically stuck to they didn't communicate with each other and they didn't follow procedures. It was clear to all the pax that I was really hassled when I tried to get a comment card.

WASTE OF TIME bothering with, but it's YOUR time. good luck.:rolleyes:

oneofthosepeopleyouloveto hate Jun 7, 2008 1:33 am


Yes - and per that page it clearly states in the Orthopedic shoes section:


Quote:
Security Officers should not be asking you to remove your orthopedic shoes, appliances, or medical device (insulin pump, feeding tube, ostomy or urine bag, or exterior component of cochlear implant) at any time during the screening process.

(emphasis mine)
If you'll re-read my earlier post, you'll see that I believe there is some conflicting information in our SOP.

It seems to say, "We won't ask you to take your orthopedic shoe off, but if it alarms the ETD and can't be sufficiently cleared -- which probably means X-rayed -- you won't be allowed into the sterile area."

Remember, there is such a statistically small possibility of this happening that the TSA is probably OK with advising passengers that they won't have to remove orthopedic shoes, as there is an overwhelming probability that they won't.

Incidentally, a supervisor (not a TSO) would be the one making the call here.

Wally Bird Jun 7, 2008 8:14 am


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9838688)
I expect passengers to take photos, but not of the screening process or anything else that could possibly lead me to believe they are doing something else (i.e. surveillance).

Ah, that old canard again; when LE gets something into their collective heads, they just won't let go of it. The notion that Ali bin Wotsit would openly lurk around checkpoints photographing GKW for his fellow plotters is laughable.

Expect we'll be hearing about 'probes' next.

SgtScott31 Jun 7, 2008 12:37 pm


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 9841438)
Ah, that old canard again; when LE gets something into their collective heads, they just won't let go of it. The notion that Ali bin Wotsit would openly lurk around checkpoints photographing GKW for his fellow plotters is laughable.

Expect we'll be hearing about 'probes' next.

Stay in your little safety bubble and let the adults handle the hazardous work. It's impossible to believe that we actually have folks conduct surveillance in an airport isn't it? Keep believin...I guess it was always safe to fly pre 9/11 too....;)

SgtScott31 Jun 7, 2008 12:44 pm


Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 9839996)
If you don't see the higher standard, then you don't understand constitutional law. An example - a retail store does not have to set aside space for a person to do soliciting; your airport does. And on a public sidewalk you can also remove those loitering and those using the sidewalk to run a business. Not much difference.

This primer on photography rights might help. And no, BNA is not quasi-private.

I am fully aware of constitutional law. I also understand what I can and can't do at our airport, as well as what we have always done at our airport. I do not take lessons from someone from Houston on an internet forum about what I can and can't do.

The primer you mention is simply an educational tool posted on the internet by an attorney. He knows policies and laws are open to interpretation just as any other attorney, judge, or court knows.

Just because we allow folks to solicit at a certain time and place, does not mean we allow anyone to do whatever they like. I am not going to get into a crap shoot with you. Media, professional photographers and the like are subject to certain rules and practices when taking photos on airport property, whether it is in the main terminal or surrounding properties (i.e. runways, commercial buildings). Failure to abide by our rules results in removal from property. Refusal to leave when told to do so leads to a trespassing charge. If you think I am wrong, feel free to challenge the arrest in court.

doober Jun 7, 2008 12:56 pm


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 9841438)
Ah, that old canard again; when LE gets something into their collective heads, they just won't let go of it. The notion that Ali bin Wotsit would openly lurk around checkpoints photographing GKW for his fellow plotters is laughable.

Expect we'll be hearing about 'probes' next.


Stay in your little safety bubble and let the adults handle the hazardous work. It's impossible to believe that we actually have folks conduct surveillance in an airport isn't it? Keep believin...I guess it was always safe to fly pre 9/11 too...
Scotty's fallen hook, line and sinker for DHS's propoganda.

SgtScott31 Jun 7, 2008 1:01 pm


Originally Posted by doober (Post 9842294)
Scotty's fallen hook, line and sinker for DHS's propoganda.

My statements have nothing to do with DHS (or TSA). I have personally been involved in stopping surveillance for those who were conducting large scale criminal plans. Same guys were caught days later several hundred miles away (in another state). There is much more going on around airports than those simply wanting to grab an aircraft or get a weapon through. Unless you are in my line of work, I do not expect you to know.

ND Sol Jun 7, 2008 3:24 pm


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9842248)
I am fully aware of constitutional law. I also understand what I can and can't do at our airport, as well as what we have always done at our airport. I do not take lessons from someone from Houston on an internet forum about what I can and can't do.

Well you have already proven that you don't even know how your airport is owned and the ramifications it has with respect to constitutional law. And whether it is Houston or Nashville, the US Constitution is equally applicable. Perhaps you should review cases such as Lee v. International Soc. for Krishna Consciousness, 505 U.S. 830 (1992), which says that a ban on distribution of literature inside an airport is unconstitutional.


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9842248)
The primer you mention is simply an educational tool posted on the internet by an attorney. He knows policies and laws are open to interpretation just as any other attorney, judge, or court knows.

Do you disagree with what he says? What law would you cite for trying to stop an individual for a non-business purpose from taking photographs on airport property when that person is in a public place?


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9842248)
Just because we allow folks to solicit at a certain time and place, does not mean we allow anyone to do whatever they like. I am not going to get into a crap shoot with you. Media, professional photographers and the like are subject to certain rules and practices when taking photos on airport property, whether it is in the main terminal or surrounding properties (i.e. runways, commercial buildings). Failure to abide by our rules results in removal from property. Refusal to leave when told to do so leads to a trespassing charge. If you think I am wrong, feel free to challenge the arrest in court.

I never said that you can do anything you would like on airport property and you also can't do anything you would like on a public sidewalk either. I am not saying that the airport is a public sidewalk, but there are more similarities between it and an airport than to a private retail store. And just what are your "rules" with respect to private photographers?


Originally Posted by SgtScott31 (Post 9842319)
My statements have nothing to do with DHS (or TSA). I have personally been involved in stopping surveillance for those who were conducting large scale criminal plans. Same guys were caught days later several hundred miles away (in another state). There is much more going on around airports than those simply wanting to grab an aircraft or get a weapon through. Unless you are in my line of work, I do not expect you to know.

Were the "large scale criminal plans" involved with directly disrupting the air transportation sector? If not, then it is not germane to the issues at hand. If it was, then I would certainly like to know the particulars as I am sure that it ended with arrests and convictions, which are public records. But I would be surprised if that was truly the case since the TSA is known to heavily promote minor instances and instances that turn out later to be untrue.

I was involved in LEO activities and I kept my MP's in focus with proper reality checks. The problem is that too many LEO's and intelligence officers see a terrorist behind every tree and that is just not the case.


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