Scubatooth

TB

here is a good primer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault

In texas if you touch someone with out their permission its assault. in the OPs example of getting there passport forced out of there hand it would aggrivated assault and gives the person the right to defend themselves with a appropriate level of force.

Haveaniceday

Right you are but that's not how it was described by AisleSitter. AisleSitter said that they would refuse to have the wallet inspected at all which is a no no.

Originally Posted by AisleSitter
What I would have done is simply kept my ID inside my wallet, and my passport in my pocket. If asked to empty my pockets, the wallet and passport would have remained in my hands at all times, and I would have refused any request to inspect them.

sbm12

This is the crux of the issue. Once it becomes a DY...T? situation with the TSO/FAM (and I did need to fly) I feel that basically my options had run out. That doesn't make it right, but that is the situation I was placed in. Also, the "rules" for the search do not allow one to stop the search once it has started. I do not know how that can be reconciled against the other, certainly not in the moment.

camerawork

The crux of the problem seems to be that it is supposed to be an "inspection" not a search or frisk! By taking anything physically out of any pocket, does this not move, again, into the realm to be legally utilised ONLY by LEO'S? And why would a FAM get involved and compromise his cover? Way too much escalation for a simple ssss.

Scubatooth

SBM12 - basically when they drop the DY...T you need to respond with" Did you just make a terroristic threat" because thats what that line is and that would add to the rest other possibility of charges. some may think thats a stretch but not really based on the LEOs i have spoken with.

studentff

I second that, but for a different reason. I've never been given the exact wording of "D-Y-W-T-F-T," but I was threatened with some variant of that once (don't remember the details). In response, I simply asked, "Did you just threaten me?"

The screener recoiled and backed off, and other screeners nearby perked up and started paying attention. It's possible, though by no means guaranteed, that they've been trained that threatening pax is bad, and that using the word threaten got their attention.

sbm12

In my case the DY...T was phrased as "You are required to complete the secondary screening." They weren't real happy when I said that they shouldn't be going through my papers and that it wasn't an appropriate part of the secondary screening.

carpboy

Caught a secondary at ABE last week on an irrop and found that there (it's changed) they now open up and look at *everything*. The picked everything out of my briefcase, leafed through all papers, etc. It took a good 10 minutes.

Explanation was that was their local procedures, admitting that there was no uniformity across stations.

I guess ABE has a higher probability of being a terrorist portal.

APW Girl

When I travelling, I use my passport for my ID as 99% of my travel is overseas. When going through security I present my BP and passport. I have never had anyone flip through it...EVER. So it seems as though the OP sets up the confrontational situation he described. I could understand if he had absolutely no ID in his possession or on his person but he is going to be showing that passport to somebody! So it seems as though he is getting what he set out to do..get some kind of attention he claims he doesn't want. If he had simply presented to BP & passport, nobody would have been emptying his pockets, going through his wallet & etc.

essxjay

So, blame the victim who is *not* required to show ID to travel domestically? Shut up and be a good little sheeple? Thanks, I'll pass.

bocastephen

Just curious - since I hope you know they are not permitted to do this, and it's illegal to boot, why allow them to leaf through your papers? You can call a manager, and escalate to the GSC, since the contents of the papers are not germane to the search.

This action by the screener is a violation of the law, not to mention your rights. Please don't let this happen again.

FliesWay2Much

I was in the private sector for a few years following the emergence of the TSA (from the swamp?). In anticipation of the TSA thought police pawing through my company papers, I always carried several blank proprietary non-disclosure agreements that I was prepared to make any screener sign who took it upon himself or herself to read company proprietary materials.

I would suggest that all of you FTers in the private sector consider doing this, and be ready to not take "No" for an answer.

Scubatooth

FliesWay2Much - I 2nd the NDA idea and I keep several with me, but beyond that and Im not afraid to push it as i will get the info as my clients will be aware of whats going on within minutes of the incident.

Even better I also keep documentation/research data thats covered by HIPAA(a real privacy act with teeth for violations) as I do dive medical research as well depending on the trip. I had one screener start to pick up a binder( hadnt even looked in it yet) in my bag when i told him i was going to need to get his information as i was going to have to pass it along to the studies legal department to process a HIPAA violation investigation. You should have seen the fear in his eyes it was amazing as that ended the screening ( i didnt have anything anyway). I should have let him look into the binder then nailed him and TSA

Its only a matter of time before they try to look at it and thats when the trap is gonna slam shut and TSA is going to get its butt in the wringer for violating HIPAA. In talking to the legal staff that oversees this study they will do exactly that and very public, for which i will love to see the blog-idiots spin.

carpboy

I have to lay low here, this is my home station. I know most of the TSOs by sight and a few by name and we are chummy. With the turnover though there are always new faces. Sad to say but since it is home I feel a need to be on as good terms with these people as I can. I have to balance rights with future expeditiousness and in this case I choose the latter.

Are there any specific cites to TSA not being allowed to riffle through papers in a secondary? Just what is and is not allowed?

sbm12

Bumping this back up as I had a rather refreshing version of this experience today, again in EWR. The TDC TSO didn't bat an eye when I said no id and he immediately reached for the book where the forms are. While he was filling it out I did have some time to read it and the contents are interesting. First, it is labeled SSI across the top. I have no idea why, but it is. Directly under that is a line stating "No 'personally identifiable' information is to be collected on this form. Then there are a bunch of check boxes for reasons that the form might be used, including no ID, expired, etc. And then under that is space for the pertinent details, including the point of issue and number on the ID. If that isn't 'personally identifiable' information, I don't know what is. There are also spaces for the flight number and destination and some more stuff at the bottom that i didn't have time to see.

While filling out the form the guy started to write my name in the DL section. I stopped him, pointed to the line about 'personally identifiable' information and suggested that my name was probably included in that. He was a bit taken aback, but scratched out my name and put the paper away.

Also at the C2 security at EWR selectees are put in a different line, including a puffer prior to the WTMD. I took my shoes off and as my stuff got to the xray/WTMD the TSO made a comment about the fact that I didn't wear my shoes for the puffer. Ultimately they just did the ETD swab on them. One of the TSOs noted that doing it that way was notably easier than the on/off/on approach otherwise required.

And the guy who did my secondary was quick and professional about the whole thing. Overall a very reasonable experience, except the part where the TSOs are trained to gather information that the form states they are not collecting. But at least they were polite and professional the whole time.

S.