SpaceCoastBill

I recently had a hard time getting thru JFK.

I complied with Airline, TSA, and FAA requirements by declaring my firearm. At all the other airports I have been through, the tag was placed in my bag, I locked it and it was on its way.

I was detained at JFK after my bag went through the TSA scanner and they recognized the firearm that was LEGALLY in my luggage, I him yell from behind a wall that he had just found a gun in CHECKED baggage. LUCKILY I was present when that happened, because I would not have had my bag and its contents, and likely would never have gotten the contents back, ever.

I was told that the airline was supposed to have a PAPD Officer inspect the bag (in violation of my 4th amendment rights) then the bag was to be brought to them. I had to wait while a TSA supervisor called an officer from th PAPD and wait until they got there. There went 15 minutes or so.

The TSA supervisor said that I was REQUIRED to notify TSA that there was a firearm in the bag. I politely told her that was not the case, I was only required to notify the airline it was in there. She continued to push the issue, and since I was now running late, I let it drop even though she was wrong.

This has never happened in any airport in the country. This is not a federal nor airline regulation so the only conclusion is that this is a way to enforce local regulations by using federal and airline employees as agents of the government.

I had to wait while a PAPD officer conferred with another Officer who confirmed that this was actually legal, and they left. After another 10 minutes, the TSA supervisor said that she needed to have an OK from the PAPD officer before she allowed my bag to clear!

The PAPD officers had long left, and did not say anythng to the TSA supervisor... which they did not have to. She was under some misguided inpression that an officer had to clear the bag before she would!

Dont they train these supervisors in the CORRECT procedures and the CORRECT laws?

LGA_UAL

I believe they was referring to the following:
A few years ago, a UA CSR at LGA informed me that they often have issues when people declare firearms to them, because often those making the declaration don't have the proper license for NYS. However, I don't know how enforcement of this works with UA/TSA reporting such to the proper police authority. If it is illegal to have a weapon in NYS, then I assume TSAs reporting of weapons to PAPD would be the same as TSAs reporting of other non-prohibited TSA illegal substances or objects found during searches.

SpaceCoastBill

New York State/New York City law was not the issue in my case.

1.) I can carry a gun concealed anywhere in the US and its territories. No local law can change that.

2.) TSA supervisor at the airport CLEARLY stated they cannot allow a firearm to go thru UNTIL a PAPD officer allowed it.

3.) NYC is clearly ignoring the US Attorney Genreals opinion sent to them advisising them that what they are diong is clearly not lawful. Here is the link for that letter: http://www.nraila.org/images/DOJltrTSA.pdf

They are using airline employees as an arm of the government by requiring a PAPD officer to be called to the desk to open the persons bag when they declare the gun as they are supposed to.

StySho168

Let me first start off by saying this is how I've seen it done at T4-PM at JFK with rifles; not sure about hand guns in checked baggage 'cause I normally saw rifles...by the way what terminal did this happen?

1. Passanger tells and declares firearm w/ the airline
2. Airline rep and PAPD escort passanger and gun to TSA baggage pit
3. Airline rep or PAPD inform screener operating CTX there's a firearm coming through...most times you just know it's a firearm is you see these 3 people
4. After gun is x-ray PAPD then takes control of the gun to make sure that everything is the way it's suppose to be; unloaded. Hence TSA is not authorized to do this step
5. Airline rep and PAPD then take it from there...not sure exactly what happens here but I know it's to insure that the gun is loaded properly, and actually loaded.

SpaceCoastBill

T9.

The problem comes in when the PAPD officer, in this case one who did not know the law, looks inside the bag and asks questions that set somone up for an arrest for possessing the firearm.

The officer I talked to told me that the language in the LEOSA was "confusing". I told him that it was actually very straightforward and easy to understand.

The airline is responsible to check the condition of the firearm, and it is supposed to be in a discrete location. It is not the PAPD who is supposed to be doing this.

The way it is supposed to work is that you declare the gun, sign the tag, place the tag inside the bag and you close and lock the bag. It gets the destination tag on it and you transport it to the TSA. You are under no obligation to inform the TSA that the gun is in there. You only have to notify the airline.

I stand there and wait until I see the bag leave on the luggage belt out of the building. Good thing in this case, the screener let out a LOUD "wo, lookit this" that could be heard above the crowd in the airport..... IF there was a problem with the bag, a bad guy could have just left. But what do you expect from TSA ?

StySho168

I can't defend anything that happens in any other terminals, but I can only talk about what happens at T4. PAPD is the only person who's authorized to check the conditions on guns...hell they use one so only they would really know if everything is proper with it. You are definitely right about it being done in a discrete location, in T4 we do it in the baggage pits where a passanger can't see it easily. Again I would just like to reiterate that I'm not saying that what you know, or gone through in the past w/ your firearm is right or wrong....I just know how things are done at JFK International Airport, Terminal 4. But you questioning the actions here and during the situation is absolutely the right thing.

ND Sol

I am sure I am missing something here, but since the gun is required to be in a locked case, how do you examine the weapon without either the passenger being present to open the case or breaking the lock? It appears that the former is not what you would do according to your post.

SpaceCoastBill

Why is PAPD the only one who can do that?

As for the discrete location, my bag was on the scale right there at the ticket counter.

Now here comes the funny part..... NOBODY ever looked at the gun. I declared it, dropped the tag in the suitcase near the unlocked gun box (the suitcase was locked) brought it to TSA, they screamed that there was a gun in the bag and it was my responsibility to notify them it was there (a wrong statement on their part).

They called PAPD and left my locked bag sitting there. PAPD talked to me, nodded and left.

TSA stupervisor said she needed a clearance from PAPD (wrong again). After another 15 minutes, she told me that she was pissed because PAPD did not come back to tell her it was OK so she cleared the bag and away it went.

This was all done right there out in the open.

At Ft Myers airport in Florida, the moron AA agent had me raise the gun out of the bag, rack the slide to show it was unloaded. Was this discrete?.. nope, right at the counter in front of a huge line of people. Sad huh?

Every other airport Ive been thru they either take a glance at the gun, or ask me to show them it is unloaded.

Isnt the AA policy different than the procedure you are talking about?

I read it and there is no mention of PAPD anywhere in the AA policy manual.

Here is the part about putting the tag IN not ON the bag (for anyone flying AA that may need this:

Baggage containing firearms will -not- knowingly be accepted for transportation unless a -signed- and -dated- declaration form (T79) is completed.
The form (T79) must be placed inside the container with the firearm. If the container with the firearm is inside another bag, the form T79 must be placed near the container with the firearm inside the bag - not inside the container with the firearm.
Applicable to both Domestic and International travel.

SpaceCoastBill

When you declare the gun, the form needs to go inside the luggage (not inside the gun box). Thats when the gun gets examined.

After that you lock your luggage and retian the key/combination.

You are wise to watch your bag to make sure that some uninformed person, like the screener @ JFK TSA, does not pull the bag off the line. If they have questions, you can show them after YOU unlock the bag that it was indeed declared.

ND Sol

That is why I asked the question as it appears that the screener was trying to open the bag away from the passenger's view.

majorwibi

I cannot argue with the rest of the points but I know this statement is wrong. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/schools/gun.control/

Click on New Mexico and and you can see that you cannot carry a concealed hand gun in this state no matter what ...

Bart

Deleted

FWAAA

Two things:

One, your info is woefully outdated; NM actually allows concealed carry now.

Two, I suspect the OP is not a mere mortal constrained by the need to obtain things like carry permits. Think men in black

Oh, and welcome to Flyertalk.

StySho168

Excuse me so leaving some things out, when I say passangers not seeing it I, I'm talking about other passanger, people passing by; that's why I said a passanger instead of the passanger....not the owner of the firearm. You just have some passangers that would see it in a controlled environment, and freak out.

SpaceCoastBill

No, the statement is correct. This is a FEDERAL law that no state can make a law to change.

If you would look at the Federal laws, it is PL 108-277. The short of it is the leading of the text,Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm

Here is where you can see the text:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c108u6Otih::

After it was signed by the President a couple of years ago, it became law. A current or retired officer may carry a firearm concealed anywhere federal law applies.