Air marshals?
Aug 19, 2005 | 5:59 pm
#16
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: PA
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Originally Posted by sbrower
I said they were intended to be visible to those who observe, not to everyone. (There are much longer responses in the Travel Security section of FlyerTalk.) But, in brief:
1. They board during a time when, if any other passenger boarded, they would be arrested for inteference with flight crew. That single fact, alone, means that they can't be undercover. They are already sitting in the airplane, generally (always??) in an aisle seat, almost always (always in my personal observation, but there may be exceptions?) in First Class. So, if *anyone* wants to know if there is a FAM on the plane, it is obvious. (There are reasons why they board early - they need to meet the crew, they need to discuss who else will be traveling with a firearm on that flight other than the FAMs, they need to discuss the "alert" words and signals of the day, etc. Changing this procedure would be a *significant* disruption to airline operations which I can detail some other time if anyone cares).
2. They carry special equipment including a PDA that is allowed to communicate during times when other passengers are not. (Has anyone ever noticed, by checking their own device, whether they have active IR in flight?)
3. They don't drink, they don't take window seats, they don't make an ... of themselves. Those factors, alone, will set you out in some First Class cabins.
4. There are other factors which are not fair to list here.
1. They board during a time when, if any other passenger boarded, they would be arrested for inteference with flight crew. That single fact, alone, means that they can't be undercover. They are already sitting in the airplane, generally (always??) in an aisle seat, almost always (always in my personal observation, but there may be exceptions?) in First Class. So, if *anyone* wants to know if there is a FAM on the plane, it is obvious. (There are reasons why they board early - they need to meet the crew, they need to discuss who else will be traveling with a firearm on that flight other than the FAMs, they need to discuss the "alert" words and signals of the day, etc. Changing this procedure would be a *significant* disruption to airline operations which I can detail some other time if anyone cares).
2. They carry special equipment including a PDA that is allowed to communicate during times when other passengers are not. (Has anyone ever noticed, by checking their own device, whether they have active IR in flight?)
3. They don't drink, they don't take window seats, they don't make an ... of themselves. Those factors, alone, will set you out in some First Class cabins.
4. There are other factors which are not fair to list here.
Yes, I have witnessed this with my very own eyes.
Aug 19, 2005 | 6:27 pm
#17
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Right here
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by sbrower
As I have previously posted in the Travel Security forum, the FAM are not supposed to be "undercover." If you are paying attention (whether you are a frequent flyer or a terrorist scout) you are *supposed* to know who they are. Just like patroling police officers, their job is *mostly* to be seen by potential criminals, not to actually capture people committing crimes.
Below is a quote from the FAM Service website --the sentence "Aboard aircraft, the identity of FAMs are known only to the flight crew and other armed law enforcement officers." makes quite clear that FAMs are NOT supposed to be known to anyone who pays attention:
FAMs are discreet (semi-covert) and blend in with other passengers. Aboard aircraft, the identity of FAMs are known only to the flight crew and other armed law enforcement officers. The identity of FAMs are also known to ground security coordinators, other airline employees, and at times, checkpoint screening security personnel
Aug 19, 2005 | 6:46 pm
#18
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Originally Posted by sbrower
4. There are other factors which are not fair to list here.
Aug 19, 2005 | 6:47 pm
#19
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Originally Posted by clarence5ybr
Aboard aircraft, the identity of FAMs are known only to the flight crew and other armed law enforcement officers. The identity of FAMs are also known to ground security coordinators, other airline employees, and at times, checkpoint screening security personnel
The only thing missing from the air marshals on a flight is a big neon arrow pointing to each of them with FAM also in neon above it.
Aug 19, 2005 | 7:05 pm
#20
Join Date: Nov 2004
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I devised a fail safe and quite simple system for those curious to know who the FAMs are. When the FAs cordon off the aisle with the food cart (good use of assets in these pretzels in FC days) and the cockpit door is open start running towards the cockpit, lunge over the cart while yelling "Allah Hu Akbar". At this point the FAMs will identify themselves and you will know.
But in general doesn't it make more sense for the USA to stop its imperialistic and hostile approach to the Arab and muslim world and thus remove the need for FAMs in the first place?
But in general doesn't it make more sense for the USA to stop its imperialistic and hostile approach to the Arab and muslim world and thus remove the need for FAMs in the first place?
Aug 19, 2005 | 7:36 pm
#21
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Right here
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by Spiff
That must refer to their real names.
The only thing missing from the air marshals on a flight is a big neon arrow pointing to each of them with FAM also in neon above it.
The only thing missing from the air marshals on a flight is a big neon arrow pointing to each of them with FAM also in neon above it.
I was not attempting to assert that FAMs are actually unknown to anyone except the flight crew, rather that the intent of the FAM program is to have this be true. I was arguing against another poster's concept that FAMs are supposed to be recognized by anyone who pays attention.
Implementation is awful, and in many cases, anyone with half a brain can pick out FAMs; but the idea is that FAMs should blend in with other pax. This is because FAMs aren't on every flight, so blending in would prevent potential attackers from knowing if their flight had a FAM aboard.
Aug 19, 2005 | 7:55 pm
#22
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Plano, Texas USA
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Originally Posted by sbrower
As I have previously posted in the Travel Security forum, the FAM are not supposed to be "undercover." If you are paying attention (whether you are a frequent flyer or a terrorist scout) you are *supposed* to know who they are. Just like patroling police officers, their job is *mostly* to be seen by potential criminals, not to actually capture people committing crimes.
Aug 19, 2005 | 8:07 pm
#23
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Originally Posted by seaskybound
I devised a fail safe and quite simple system for those curious to know who the FAMs are. When the FAs cordon off the aisle with the food cart (good use of assets in these pretzels in FC days) and the cockpit door is open start running towards the cockpit, lunge over the cart while yelling "Allah Hu Akbar". At this point the FAMs will identify themselves and you will know.
But in general doesn't it make more sense for the USA to stop its imperialistic and hostile approach to the Arab and muslim world and thus remove the need for FAMs in the first place?
But in general doesn't it make more sense for the USA to stop its imperialistic and hostile approach to the Arab and muslim world and thus remove the need for FAMs in the first place?
Aug 19, 2005 | 9:23 pm
#24
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
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Posts: 9,339
Originally Posted by gemac
You are still operating under the assumption that the FAMs are there to battle terrorist hijackers. But stop and think about the way that the Air Marshal program was introduced. If the FAMs were supposed to actually defend the aircraft against terrorist hijackings, what purpose would it serve to announce loudly and publicly that FAMs will be operating undercover on flights? Maybe to keep the terrorists' odds of success from being too low for a "sporting fight"?I
If the FAMs are undercover the hijackers would just never know if they are there. The bad guys only seem to act if the likely hood of success is very high.
Aug 19, 2005 | 9:42 pm
#25
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Originally Posted by SirFlysALot
Well actually yes! You don't need a FAM to subdue a rowdy passenger. The OPs will do that! Passengers are only too happy to beat the snot out of anyone who gives the flight crew a hard time. Richard Reid showed that!
If the FAMs are undercover the hijackers would just never know if they are there. The bad guys only seem to act if the likely hood of success is very high.
If the FAMs are undercover the hijackers would just never know if they are there. The bad guys only seem to act if the likely hood of success is very high.
I'm glad that the existence of the FAM program makes you feel safer. See, its working.
Aug 19, 2005 | 10:43 pm
#26
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We can save tons of money if we issue inflated pig bladders to GAs, who will touch each boarding passenger with them. Anyone flinches or refuses, they don't fly...
Aug 19, 2005 | 10:55 pm
#27
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
Programs: AA Plat UA Premier
Posts: 9,339
Originally Posted by gemac
We make the FAMs board before everybody else. They always sit in the same seat. They are the only passenger in First turning down the free booze.
What we have now is like an unmarked squad car. They have little hubcaps, big tires, red headlights, they are a Crown Victoria which no one but a cab driver would buy and they have a guy in uniform sitting in it. It doesn't fool anybody! Now if the unmarked cars were Kias or Hondas....
Aug 19, 2005 | 11:23 pm
#29
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 2,009
Originally Posted by SCEflyer
It is highly probable that if AA and UA, along with the others, had not been so lax about security on and before 9/11/01, Atta and his band(s) might have never made it past through airport security lines. ("Box cutters" in the carry ons, and no one gave them a second thought?) This "theft" of premium seats is more of a penalty that hits the airlines every day, as partial restitution for their incompetence, when it came to security, in the days/months/years leading up to September 11. They have no one to blame but themselves for the current predicament of the industry.
Aug 19, 2005 | 11:33 pm
#30
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Slackerville, FL USA
Posts: 1,844
Originally Posted by SCEflyer
It is highly probable that if AA and UA, along with the others, had not been so lax about security on and before 9/11/01, Atta and his band(s) might have never made it past through airport security lines. ("Box cutters" in the carry ons, and no one gave them a second thought?) This "theft" of premium seats is more of a penalty that hits the airlines every day, as partial restitution for their incompetence, when it came to security, in the days/months/years leading up to September 11. They have no one to blame but themselves for the current predicament of the industry.
Give the air marshalls a break. They are just doing their job, and if their presence has helped to avoid one catastrophe, it is a job well done.
Next time you are in coach, and believe that a FAM has stolen your premium perch, just offer it up.
Give the air marshalls a break. They are just doing their job, and if their presence has helped to avoid one catastrophe, it is a job well done.
Next time you are in coach, and believe that a FAM has stolen your premium perch, just offer it up.
Lax security wasn't the problem. Apparently box cutters weren't a banned item back then. Have you seen the latest list of items that the TSA is thinking about allowing back on the airplane? Kind of scary.
The major reason that 9/11 happened is that everyone, not just the FA's, thought that hijackers main objective was to take an aircraft for political reasons. Previous hijacking incidents had shown us that they typically would take over and demand freedom for captured infidels or that they would want to land in the country of their choice. Nobody realized they would use the planes themselves as weapons, with no landing in mind. If they did, I find it doubtful that an airplane full of people would allow 2 or 3 guys to kill them. It was just ignorance of the intent of the terrorists that caught everyone by surprise that day.