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Old Jun 14, 2005 | 9:30 pm
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Schengen

Does anyone else think the Schengen Agreement is the worst thing for European security?

I cannot understand why in a post-September 11 world the various European countries continue to allow the “free movement” of persons with essentially no border control.

Last year I went on a seven-day business trip (it was a personal vacation if you work for Customs & Immigration, lol) that saw me hit Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom in that short period.

My first flight originated in Detroit and landed in Amsterdam. Upon arrival, I proceeded to the passport control area, where the inspector looked at my U.S. passport and stamped it, without any questions or even a second-look.

From there I caught a connecting flight to Brussels. After arriving in Belgium, a friend decided to take me on a drive back up to the Netherlands for the evening. And because of Schengen, there was no border control.

We proceeded back to Brussels and two days later, I caught a flight to Copenhagen for mini-stay. The next morning I flew back to Brussels. Again, no passport control at either airport.

The remainder of my trip was in Brussels and nearby cities. On my way home, I flew to London’s Gatwick for a flight back to Detroit. Because the U.K. is not part of Schengen, I was subject to passport control upon arrival and the questions were brief, but at least there was security. I then proceeded to overnight at a local hotel before a morning flight home.

You would think so much travel in such a short period would alert security officials, but it didn’t. I can safely say that the Schengen member countries have little information about who or what is coming and leaving their soil and airspace. Quite sad.
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Old Jun 14, 2005 | 9:47 pm
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Establishing internal checks on all movement by having security checkpoints on each and every corner of each and every block would make everyone safe, right?

Should NY set up a border check when people come from CT? Should Illinois set up border checkpoints along its border with Iowa? Why not?

The Swedes need a border check for all those Danes coming across and buying groceries any property because they cannot live with their American spouses in Denmark.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jun 14, 2005 at 9:50 pm
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Old Jun 14, 2005 | 10:01 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Establishing internal checks on all movement by having security checkpoints on each and every corner of each and every block would make everyone safe, right?

Should NY set up a border check when people come from CT? Should Illinois set up border checkpoints along its border with Iowa? Why not?

The Swedes need a border check for all those Danes coming across and buying groceries any property because they cannot live with their American spouses in Denmark.
Europe is not a country and it looks like that won't happen anytime soon judging by the recent no votes in France and the Netherlands.

There should be border control.

And there are no checks on the Denmark-Sweden border to my knowledge.
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Old Jun 14, 2005 | 10:08 pm
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Open border with Mexico worse than Schengen

The U.S. has an open border with Mexico, which likely is more problematic than the border between Belgium and the Netherlands.

Schengen has nothing to do with the limited check that was encountered at the first point of entry. Schengen means that each country accepts the other Schengen members' border activities, so there is no need to check further, just like a person admitted to New York probably doesn't need to be checked again when arriving in California.

This does not mean that people from countries under scrutiny do not undergo scrutiny at the first point they enter a Schengen country.

No such scruntiny occurs at the US border with Mexico, which is nearly completely open.
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Old Jun 14, 2005 | 10:43 pm
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider
Europe is not a country and it looks like that won't happen anytime soon judging by the recent no votes in France and the Netherlands.

There should be border control.
Let the Europeans determine if they want border controls or not. If the Swedes and Danes don't want to put on a full-court press to patrol their border for flows of people, goods, capital, etc, perhaps that's their own business.

[And, for example, if the non-Schengen Swiss don't care to look at anything more than my passport cover, then that's their own business. And whether I like it or not, the Swiss should have whatever policies and practices that they want in that regard.]

Originally Posted by hockeyinsider
And there are no checks on the Denmark-Sweden border to my knowledge.
That was implicit in my point. Do you really think that the Danes and Swedes going back and forth across the respective boundaries are today going to welcome more opportunities for lines?
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 12:29 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
[And, for example, if the non-Schengen Swiss don't care to look at anything more than my passport cover, then that's their own business. And whether I like it or not, the Swiss should have whatever policies and practices that they want in that regard.]
Do they actually bother to look at your passport cover?

I must have crossed the German-Swiss, French-Swiss, and Italian-Swiss borders at least 100 times in the past 4 years by car and never once has anybody asked to see my passport in either direction.
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 12:33 am
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Some of the european countries are small and have quite a high volume of border traffic. How would you feel if each US state implemented full security checks at all state borders?
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 12:35 am
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Originally Posted by Dovster
Do they actually bother to look at your passport cover?

I must have crossed the German-Swiss, French-Swiss, and Italian-Swiss borders at least 100 times in the past 4 years by car and never once has anybody asked to see my passport in either direction.
Flying into Switzerland, they look at the cover. Driving into Switzerland, I've never been asked.
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 12:38 am
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One of the wonderful things about living is Europe is the freedom of movement. I sure as heck don't want the same, worthless, sheep herding system that is in place in the US. As you travel the world, you will see that the US is the exception, not the rule.
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 1:03 am
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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider
Does anyone else think the Schengen Agreement is the worst thing for European security?

I cannot understand why in a post-September 11 world the various European countries continue to allow the “free movement” of persons with essentially no border control.
You would think so much travel in such a short period would alert security officials, but it didn’t. I can safely say that the Schengen member countries have little information about who or what is coming and leaving their soil and airspace. Quite sad.
It seems that the brainwashing intended to make one paranoid has been successful
Because you don't have to show your passport or an ID everytime you make a move or buy something, does not necessarily mean that no checks are being made. You just do not notice them, but let me assure you that the authorities know what you are up to.
Be happy as an American to be treated differently than, say, an African or Middle East national.
The risk of a terrorist carrying an American passport is very slim and therefore Americans are checked perfunctorily because they were subject to sufficient checks before leaving their own country
Once inside the Schengen area, there is no passport control, but surveillance is still there. Freedom of movement, however, is most important and does not endanger my life.
Despite all the unnecessary checks in the US, I can tell you that I still feel much safer while traveling in Europe than in in US.
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 1:19 am
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Originally Posted by magexpect
Be happy as an American to be treated differently than, say, an African or Middle East national....Once inside the Schengen area, there is no passport control, but surveillance is still there. Freedom of movement, however, is most important and does not endanger my life.
Despite all the unnecessary checks in the US, I can tell you that I still feel much safer while traveling in Europe than in in US.
I can tell you that there is no difference in the treatment I am given when using my American passport as opposed to my Israeli.

What I do consider absolutely ridiculous is the situation on the Swiss borders. I can drive from Germany to Holland, for example, without ever seeing a policeman but on the Swiss borders there are always a minimum of two Swiss cops and an equal number from the European country.

These people do absolutely nothing. They just stand there and wave their hands telling you to continue driving. What is the point of paying their salaries for this?

(Exception: When entering Switzerland on the autostrada they look to see if the car has a valid autostrada sticker for that year. If not, they waive you over to pay 40 francs to buy one.)
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 1:24 am
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Originally Posted by Dovster
What I do consider absolutely ridiculous is the situation on the Swiss borders. I can drive from Germany to Holland, for example, without ever seeing a policeman but on the Swiss borders there are always a minimum of two Swiss cops and an equal number from the European country.

These people do absolutely nothing. They just stand there and wave their hands telling you to continue driving. What is the point of paying their salaries for this?
To make unemployment appear artificially low?

Originally Posted by Dovster
(Exception: When entering Switzerland on the autostrada they look to see if the car has a valid autostrada sticker for that year. If not, they waive you over to pay 40 francs to buy one.)
Did they point you in the right direction? Plenty of Americans (and presumably Israelis too) driving there for the first time don't realize that until asked to pony up the money.
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 1:44 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Did they point you in the right direction? Plenty of Americans (and presumably Israelis too) driving there for the first time don't realize that until asked to pony up the money.
I hate taxation. I don't care if it is me being taxed or somebody else. I know it is necessary but that doesn't stop me from hating it.

A few years ago, I drove from France to Italy, crossing through Switzerland. Usually the woman selling the autostrada stickers actually puts it on your windshield. This time, she just handed it to me.

After I drove through Switzerland I went into the exchange area on the Italian side of the border to change some money. I heard a couple of Americans talking and asked them which way they were going -- they told me into Switzerland. I was very happy to hand them the blasted sticker so they wouldn't have to pay that 40 francs.
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 1:48 am
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Originally Posted by Dovster
I hate taxation. I don't care if it is me being taxed or somebody else. I know it is necessary but that doesn't stop me from hating it.

A few years ago, I drove from France to Italy, crossing through Switzerland. Usually the woman selling the autostrada stickers actually puts it on your windshield. This time, she just handed it to me.

After I drove through Switzerland I went into the exchange area on the Italian side of the border to change some money. I heard a couple of Americans talking and asked them which way they were going -- they told me into Switzerland. I was very happy to hand them the blasted sticker so they wouldn't have to pay that 40 francs.
What's your opinion on toll-roads? [That may be the alternative. ] Couldn't you keep the sticker for your next road trip or was there an attractive person who caught your eye? ]

Last edited by GUWonder; Jun 15, 2005 at 1:51 am
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Old Jun 15, 2005 | 1:59 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
What's your opinion on toll-roads? [That may be the alternative. ] Couldn't you keep the sticker for your next road trip or was there an attractive person who caught your eye? ]
I hate toll roads but I am too chicken to run them. I would have kept the sticker but it was December and it expired at the end of the year.

One of the things that really bugs me about those stickers is that you pay the same price if you buy them in the beginning or the end of the year. Another thing is that no matter how many times I have rented cars in MXP, I have never gotten one with a Swiss sticker on it. I am sure that a lot of earlier renters have bought them (MXP serves Lugano as well as Milan), so what happens to them?
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