Schengen
 

Does anyone else think the Schengen Agreement is the worst thing for European security?

I cannot understand why in a post-September 11 world the various European countries continue to allow the “free movement” of persons with essentially no border control.

Last year I went on a seven-day business trip (it was a personal vacation if you work for Customs & Immigration, lol) that saw me hit Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom in that short period.

My first flight originated in Detroit and landed in Amsterdam. Upon arrival, I proceeded to the passport control area, where the inspector looked at my U.S. passport and stamped it, without any questions or even a second-look.

From there I caught a connecting flight to Brussels. After arriving in Belgium, a friend decided to take me on a drive back up to the Netherlands for the evening. And because of Schengen, there was no border control.

We proceeded back to Brussels and two days later, I caught a flight to Copenhagen for mini-stay. The next morning I flew back to Brussels. Again, no passport control at either airport.

The remainder of my trip was in Brussels and nearby cities. On my way home, I flew to London’s Gatwick for a flight back to Detroit. Because the U.K. is not part of Schengen, I was subject to passport control upon arrival and the questions were brief, but at least there was security. I then proceeded to overnight at a local hotel before a morning flight home.

You would think so much travel in such a short period would alert security officials, but it didn’t. I can safely say that the Schengen member countries have little information about who or what is coming and leaving their soil and airspace. Quite sad.

Establishing internal checks on all movement by having security checkpoints on each and every corner of each and every block would make everyone safe, right?

Should NY set up a border check when people come from CT? Should Illinois set up border checkpoints along its border with Iowa? Why not?

The Swedes need a border check for all those Danes coming across and buying groceries any property because they cannot live with their American spouses in Denmark. :D

Europe is not a country and it looks like that won't happen anytime soon judging by the recent no votes in France and the Netherlands.

There should be border control.

And there are no checks on the Denmark-Sweden border to my knowledge.

Open border with Mexico worse than Schengen
 

The U.S. has an open border with Mexico, which likely is more problematic than the border between Belgium and the Netherlands.

Schengen has nothing to do with the limited check that was encountered at the first point of entry. Schengen means that each country accepts the other Schengen members' border activities, so there is no need to check further, just like a person admitted to New York probably doesn't need to be checked again when arriving in California.

This does not mean that people from countries under scrutiny do not undergo scrutiny at the first point they enter a Schengen country.

No such scruntiny occurs at the US border with Mexico, which is nearly completely open.

Let the Europeans determine if they want border controls or not. If the Swedes and Danes don't want to put on a full-court press to patrol their border for flows of people, goods, capital, etc, perhaps that's their own business.

[And, for example, if the non-Schengen Swiss don't care to look at anything more than my passport cover, then that's their own business. And whether I like it or not, the Swiss should have whatever policies and practices that they want in that regard.]

That was implicit in my point. Do you really think that the Danes and Swedes going back and forth across the respective boundaries are today going to welcome more opportunities for lines?

Do they actually bother to look at your passport cover?

I must have crossed the German-Swiss, French-Swiss, and Italian-Swiss borders at least 100 times in the past 4 years by car and never once has anybody asked to see my passport in either direction.

Some of the european countries are small and have quite a high volume of border traffic. How would you feel if each US state implemented full security checks at all state borders?

Flying into Switzerland, they look at the cover. Driving into Switzerland, I've never been asked.

One of the wonderful things about living is Europe is the freedom of movement. I sure as heck don't want the same, worthless, sheep herding system that is in place in the US. As you travel the world, you will see that the US is the exception, not the rule.

It seems that the brainwashing intended to make one paranoid has been successful :)
Because you don't have to show your passport or an ID everytime you make a move or buy something, does not necessarily mean that no checks are being made. You just do not notice them, but let me assure you that the authorities know what you are up to.
Be happy as an American to be treated differently than, say, an African or Middle East national.
The risk of a terrorist carrying an American passport is very slim and therefore Americans are checked perfunctorily because they were subject to sufficient checks before leaving their own country ;)
Once inside the Schengen area, there is no passport control, but surveillance is still there. Freedom of movement, however, is most important and does not endanger my life.
Despite all the unnecessary checks in the US, I can tell you that I still feel much safer while traveling in Europe than in in US.

I can tell you that there is no difference in the treatment I am given when using my American passport as opposed to my Israeli.

What I do consider absolutely ridiculous is the situation on the Swiss borders. I can drive from Germany to Holland, for example, without ever seeing a policeman but on the Swiss borders there are always a minimum of two Swiss cops and an equal number from the European country.

These people do absolutely nothing. They just stand there and wave their hands telling you to continue driving. What is the point of paying their salaries for this?

(Exception: When entering Switzerland on the autostrada they look to see if the car has a valid autostrada sticker for that year. If not, they waive you over to pay 40 francs to buy one.)

To make unemployment appear artificially low? :D

Did they point you in the right direction? Plenty of Americans (and presumably Israelis too) driving there for the first time don't realize that until asked to pony up the money. :D

I hate taxation. I don't care if it is me being taxed or somebody else. I know it is necessary but that doesn't stop me from hating it.

A few years ago, I drove from France to Italy, crossing through Switzerland. Usually the woman selling the autostrada stickers actually puts it on your windshield. This time, she just handed it to me.

After I drove through Switzerland I went into the exchange area on the Italian side of the border to change some money. I heard a couple of Americans talking and asked them which way they were going -- they told me into Switzerland. I was very happy to hand them the blasted sticker so they wouldn't have to pay that 40 francs. :cool:

What's your opinion on toll-roads? :D [That may be the alternative. :( ] Couldn't you keep the sticker for your next road trip or was there an attractive person who caught your eye? :D]

I hate toll roads but I am too chicken to run them. I would have kept the sticker but it was December and it expired at the end of the year.

One of the things that really bugs me about those stickers is that you pay the same price if you buy them in the beginning or the end of the year. Another thing is that no matter how many times I have rented cars in MXP, I have never gotten one with a Swiss sticker on it. I am sure that a lot of earlier renters have bought them (MXP serves Lugano as well as Milan), so what happens to them?

No. The Schengen agreement predates the NY attacks and has proved successful.

There are many Europeans (including me) who find Immigration checks at FRA and elsewhere when arriving from the UK and on returning to the UK tiresome and unnecessary.

Well, there are the border checks between Arizona and California :D . Ah, no, they're 'Agricultural', so that's all right, then ;) .

Then there was the diversion of traffic on the freeway between Nogales AZ and Tucson AZ - the only freeway with distances in km :p - where we were 'interviewed' at the top of the offramp by what looked like state police. As we were gringos with CA license plates, the cop asked 'Going home?' meaning LA, presumably. I managed my best Cary Grant accent to say 'Well yes, actually, officer' and we were waved on our way. But not exactly free movement.

Europe is a continent. The Schengen agreement is between 12 members of the EU. The EU is not the same as Europe. As explained elsewhere, there are border controls.

re Switzerland. The Swiss already enjoy free movement with EU and EEA countries under the bilaterals. Entering the UK, they join the same lines as UK and other EU and EEA member nationals. The same applies in reverse, i.e. EU/EEA nationals enter Switzerland on the same terms as the Swiss.

The Swiss voted in the last referendum to join the Schengen agreement - logical when they are surrounded by Schengen countries. There remains some tidying up to be done. Chances are Switzerland will be a 'better' notional EU member in this respect than actual members the UK, Ireland and Denmark :D .

Also, free movement between Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and France predated the Schengen agreement with no apparent harm to security

As part of the free movement rules, foreigners including other EU citizens in a Schengen state do need identity documents.

Many subjects at once...

I do hate taxes as well but the CHF 40.- do not bother me as the road tolls in other countries....

Just for your information: The Swiss sticker HAS to be glued immediately on the windshield. If caught having one but not stuck, there is an additional CHF 100.- in fine. :td:

Beware also that in Italy a bright safety vest (yellow or organge) MUST be in the vehicle. The Italian police is very keen on the fine :mad:

Customs in Switzerland: Switzerland does not belong to Schengen. As such they are REQUIRED from the EU to have border personnel and they do random checks. A few weeks ago, however, the Swiss voted in a referendum to be part of Schengen, so within a year you will not have the feeling they are battling the unemployment statistics. They WILL be unemployed...

When renting a car out of Milan, REQUEST a car with the sticker for Switzerland. They will accommodate you.

I have done that repeatedly with both Avis and Hertz but with no luck. :mad:

Quite right, especially when compared with road tolls in France! I just wonder how much of the CHF 40 is spent on administration. It hardly seems worth the bother.

About sticking on to the windscreen, I am told that if you want to transfer the sticker to another car, you can't. The sticker is designed to disintegrate if you try. However, if you first stick it on to a piece if clear polythene and apply the polythene side on to the windscreen, it is removable. Of course, I don't know this from experience :eek: .

The safey vest requirement for ALL occupants is becoming mandatory in some other EU countries. Soon, we'll all need them. I just picked up my new car in the UK and yellow vests were included with the safety equipment :) .

Israelis are as privileged as Americans when coming to Switzerland, a little bit the same as the status for the countries under the Visa Waiver Program in the US.
It would be different if you had a Syrian, Lebanese or Saudi passport, believe you me...

I guess because they are in Italy where variable road tolls apply. Can't really blame them for not increasing their costs by paying for a foreign tax. Rent in Switzerland and you get a Swiss sticker.

I haven't rented in Austria since they introduced a simlar system to the Swiss, but I imagine the Austrian renters would include the sticker.

Not only you can't, but it is not allowed. The sticker will disintegrate but worse, trying to stick it to plythene is considered a crime (like tax evasion in the US) and the fines ARE horrendous. Don't ever try it. ;)

I don't expect them to pay for these stickers. However, given the fact that so many cars rented at MXP are driven into the Lugano area I would expect that after the first few months of any year most of them would have stickers paid for by other renters.

I can't understand why I never managed to get one.

Probably just bad luck, I suppose. :(
If you are coming this way soon :) , I still have one that was offered to me, I'll gladly send it to you.

I appreciate the offer but about a year ago my UIG bought a bigger car so now when we go to Lugano we take her already-stickered car. :)

Who? Me? :D No, seriously I haven't and wouldn't - it's not necessary for me.

I just think that CHF 40 is such an inconsequential sum - introduced (at a lower rate) to support the building of the motorway system which is now just about complete, so rationally it should disappear - though taxes don't disappear, do they :rolleyes: ? CHF 40 for a year is not too bad, for a weekend it is too much.

My easy way of avoiding the Swiss toll is to pretend it doesn't exist. I've driven into CH many, many times with rental cars from other countries and a couple of times with my own car. I've never had a problem.

One time I went through a very lightly used Swiss border checkpoint and the guard asked me a bunch of questions and looked at my passport. But I think he was just bored and eventually he waved me through. I was driving a French Avis Mercedes.

If you do not enter Swizerland on the autostrada you will not have to buy the sticker. It is not required for use on regular roads.

You are, of course, subject to a fine if you later get on the autostrada but no Swiss policeman has ever gotten close enough to my car to see if I have one. Just make certain that when you leave the country you also go through a non-autostrada road.

I've come and gone on both autostrada and non autostrada roads. Never a problem.

I think that whenever people propose policy, they should be able to point to an actual problem that they are trying to solve. Then, everyone can look at the problem and look at the solution and see if the solution solves the problem.

Now, what is the problem? You see the lack of border security as a problem. But is it? I don't think so. No one is dying or hurt because of that lack of security. Now, if there were an actual problem, like terrorists sneaking from Paris to London to do dirty deeds, well then we might have to look for a solution.

The world has enough problems. We should concentrate on the ones that actually exist.

Europeans are required by law to carry a State / Country ID which can be sighted anywhere within the EU by Police or Customs (the Zoll - you will see them quite often on german roads especially checking trucks) There may not be as many border controls anymore but believe me there are lots of other checks going on in areas where you wouldn't think to find them. Little example I have a dutch collegue with a dutch numberplate who travels to germany on a regular basis. One day while travelling between 2 clients on a road between 2 villages he suddenly disappeared out of my rearview mirror and about 2 min later he called to tell me to pull over & wait for him as he had been stopped by the drug squad - oh & I guess I should mention the nearest border was about 250 km away. It was simply the number plate dutch numberplates are often stopped as well as germans near the French & Netherland borders.

If you leave the EU our Passports (the red EU ones have always been machinereadable) are swiped and it happens so quickly I didn't even see it the last time I came back so I asked if it had been done. Sure enough I was registered as having returned to the EU.

We are actually regulated to the teeth the only differance is we know we are. In the US I am often under the impression that people are not really aware of just how much Big Brother is really watching you!! Even this post will go through some kind of screening before it leaves the german web knot in Frankfurtand is transmited to the Flyertalk server in what ever part of the world.

Those of you who deal with top secret / industrial secrets will know not to email / Fax or phone an details to anyone for the fear of industrial espionage and it happens everyday!!!!

Why?

In some limited fashions, it does operate like a country. So if you don't have to pass an internal border to go from New York to New Jersey, why should you have to pass one to go from France to Germany?

If someone isn't a security problem when they land in Paris, why would they turn into one upon hitting the border to Germany?

Anyway, free movement is more important an illusion of security. If anything, there are a number of borders (physical and otherwise) that need to be loosened up.

I've never heard of this before. Can they point to any legitimate evidence that this is going to be worth the cost?

I've done this a few times, but been caught in Austria (ignorance) and the Czech Republic - and fined both times.

Oh, come on! You really think there’s border security? For the most part, they have absolutely no idea who’s entering they country after the initial point of entry.

Just look at all those terrorists in Germany before September 11 and the freedom of movement that they had … who knows what they could have done!

Unlike Europe, the American states are not sovereign countries and have absolutely no authority to have border checks. European nations are sovereign and it’s quite unfortunate that leftist politicians have destroyed security in a move towards a People’s Republic of Europe.

(Edited post to remove a typo, new word is in bold)

That's not true at all. The U.K. does not have ID cars and I believe a couple other countries don't as well.

I think the cost is moderate - a few pounds. Visibility is enhanced, especially in poor weaher or at night.

From the UK's Automobile Association (www.theaa.co.uk):

Austria: From 1 May 2005 every car driver has to carry the reflectorised jacket/waistcoat which has to be used in the case of a breakdown or accident and even when setting up a warning triangle on the road.

Italy: The wearing of reflectorised jacket/waistcoat compulsory if driver and/or passenger(s) exits vehicle which is immobilised on the carriageway at night or in poor visibility.

Portugal: From 26 June 2005 the wearing of reflectorised jacket/waistcoat compulsory if driver and/or passenger(s) exits vehicle which is immobilised on the carriageway of all motorways and main or busy roads. The jacket must be carried in the passenger compartment of the vehicle (not the boot).

Spain: From 24 July 2004 the wearing of reflectorised jacket/waistcoat compulsory if driver and/or passenger(s) exits vehicle which is immobilised on the carriageway of all motorways and main or busy roads. Be aware however that Car Hire Companies are not under legal obligation to supply them to persons hiring vehicles, so often don’t.

DON’T forget reflective jacket/waistcoat when visiting Italy, Spain, Portugal and Austria. The AA recommends that each vehicle carries at least two jackets/waistcoats in the passenger compartment – one for the driver and one for passenger who may need to assist e.g. changing a wheel. Jacket/waistcoat, which must conform to EU Standard BS EN 471: 1994 Class 1 or 2, available from AA Dover and Folkestone shops, by mail order from Summit Accessories on 01295 220 050 or from motor accessory stores.

I guess they could have gone from country to country. So, what's the point? Europe doesn't have a terrorism problem, at least not to the degree that anything has to be done about it.

The border security you propose is a solution in search of a problem.

Spain would be surprised to hear that. They arrested 16 terrorists today.

Are you kidding?

There’s ETA in France and Spain, the IRA in Ireland and the U.K., and countless other groups. Not to mention drug and human smugglers that get into Italy and then have easy access - thanks to Schengen - to all the other countries.