:D

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think :D .

Such a generalisation about a community with a population significantly larger than that of the US and where some countries have governments even further to the right than the current administration in the US is laughable.

Where my parents live in the US, they have had a road toll on the major highways for something like 30 years. The press reported that the roads were fully paid for something like 12 years ago, but of course the tolls continue (the money now gets spent on other things, as is always the case with taxes of any sort). Once you pay Danegeld, you can never get rid of the Dane, or so the saying goes.

That's one of my biggest problems with the EU ... they always seem to dream up something that requires a cash outlay by everyone in the name of safety (or whatever other excuse). Like requiring pig farmers provide toys to their pigs (this got really ridiculed a few years back IIRC). Everything is "for your own good." Of course, this isn't a problem localized to the EU...

I am a political science student with previous employment experience in Europe and Washington, D.C. and I feel my statement is quite accurate.

Many in the E.U. wish to ditch the respective nat’l identities and move towards a one-nation Europe Thankfully, the public doesn’t want that, as evident by the recent no votes in France and the Netherlands.

Moreover, most of Europe’s governments would be quite leftist compared to the U.S. administration.

(Edited message to fix typo ... I really should use a spell/grammar checker)

And they managed to do so WITHOUT the draconian 'security' measures some people seem to enjoy.

Could be a lesson there ;) .

Well, bully for you. FWIW, I have lived and worked in five EU countries and one other close by. I know from experience that you simply can't generalise.

I have only visited 39 US states - probably more than most FTers, I guess, and possibly more even than you - but I know you cannot generalise about people in the US. What people in Maine believe can be very different from what the good ol' boys in the South believe, and Californians are different again, just to give examples that many will sympathise with. Just as you can't generalise about the US, you can't do so with the greater population of the EU either (or 'Europe' as you call it).

It's clear that we disagree quite profoundly and there's no point in continuing this kind of debate. I'm off to do something more productive ;) .

A cheap attempt at sarcasm, reason be gone:

[sarcasm]Oh, come on! You really think there’s border security? For the most part, the US has absolutely no idea who’s entering the country after the initial point of entry.

Just look at all those terrorists in the United States on September 11 and the freedom of movement that they had … who knows what they could have done!

Unlike America, the European states are under Brussels' thumb and have their authorities checked. American states are not under Brussels' thumb and it’s quite unfortunate that rightist politicians have destroyed security in a move against being under Brussels' thumb.[/sarcasm]

I suggest one not attempt to use false appeals to authority. It doesn't strengthen your point when one gets down to the logic of it all.

What Europeans want for their individual countries and for the EU is their business. I am not a big believer in meddling in the internal affairs of democratic countries and imposing (or trying to impose) my way. ;)

Extra-territoriality is troublesome. The explicit intent to engage in such is even more so. Unnecessary foreign entanglements. I think someone warned us about that a long time ago.

It's the opposite. Europe has always had terrorism, but the US doesn't seriously have a terrorism problem. The US had the horrible attack on 9/11 and the Oklahoma City bombing. That's it. Europeans have had terrorism for as long as there has been a Europe. In the 20th century alone there were thousands of terrorist attacks in Europe.

There's no such thing as an European state. Europe is not one-nation and it doesn't look that will happen anytime soon.

I was watching a news segement on the "European Journal" TV program produced in Brussels and circulated on America's PBS network. It talked about how German border security agents wish the old-style checks were still around today and they talked about all the smuggling and other illegal activity.

And a terrorist group in the US would have access to all the other states in the US, and it's so much worse: there is far more land in the US than in Europe. Sure the states aren't separate countries, but how does that make a difference when catching terrorists? Why aren't you tackling the glaring problem we have in the US, thanks to the US Constitution?

I stand corrected. At the very least, then, they have the good sense not to panic and do things that don't seem quite geared toward solving the problem but sound nice.

Thank you for sharing the obvious. :D

People would never be motivated by petty self-interest, including job security and ego. Never. :rolleyes:

If certain German border security agents believe there is a real problem, then they could appropriately lobby their superiors and the public to change matters. If they are right about the "need", make a compelling argument which can convince a critical mass, and are determined, then it shouldn't be too hard for them to "succeed" if they are smart and effective.

That is one of the major reasons I prefer to live in Europe. The reaction to 9/11 in the US has been horrible. Much of it makes me embarrased to be an American. I happened to be in Europe during 9/11 and while the Europeans were of course horrified, life went on as normal. They don't live in fear perhaps because terrorism isn't anything new to them.

No doubt. Gets old having to tell folks I'm from Canada but at least I don't get dirty looks or Bush jokes.

The program said they have and many Europeans are concerned about Schengen as well. There was talk about suspending it last year when there was some big soccer event in Portgual or Spain. Can't remember. I think it was some UEFA event.

They did and still do enforce border control when they are afraid of soccer hooligans entering their country to cause havoc. It is quite simple to stop a bunch of passengers on a EZ jet flight who fit a profile. Same for those who drive in. But that doesn't affect the rest of us.

As a business traveler, I love Schengen!

As someone who worked for President Bush, I proudly sport my Bush-Cheney stickers. I love getting into discussions about these sorts of things. :)

When I lived in Canada and commuted daily to work in the States, I had a Bush sticker on my automobile and a Bush sign in my yard at my Canadian house. hehe :)

Stimpy, I am very surprised to read that statement from you. Apparently you support the idea of profiling, for example, young male Englishmen when Manchester United is playing a German team. Of course, it is obvious that some of those young men might not even be interested in soccer, much less be hooligans.

The reason I am so surprised is that you have expressed your disagreement with profiling in the past.

On a thread dealing precisely with that, intobsv posted, "I guess I will never understand people that say that Middle Eastern looking people should not be targeted by airline security personnel. Please explain to me why a 65 year old woman is as much a danger as a 24 year old Arab Muslim."

Your reply in the following post was a sarcastic, "I think we should profile all blond haired blue-eyed people with short hair. You never know when another Timothy McVeigh could be lurking out there."

How do you justify profiling, say, young Englishmen but not young Arabs?

I can see why some people would like Schengen, but I think there's room for improvement from a security perspective. And as a tourist, I like my passport stamps. :D

Dovester, I'm against racial profiling. Some English soccer hooligans ARE Arabs! I don't see a problem profiling drunken young men with St. George's Cross tatoos or face paintings and M-U jerseys on during the eve of a big soccer match. Especially as many of these men are already known to the police due to past transgressions. The British Home Office has kindly informed the police in other countries whom to look out for.

... and for big matches they send some UK police along to assist the local forces.

If their names appear on a list supplied by the British government, then it is not profiling.

Profiling would consist of looking more closely at all young British men coming in during the soccer match. Of course, after talking to them many may well still be allowed to enter the country. Profiling, after all, does not mean automatic banning -- it simply alerts police or security officials to check the profiled individual more closely than they would somebody who does not fit the profile.

I don't like passport stamps. I prefer my passports thin.

Is there any reason to think a majority of people in the Schengen countries want Schengen tossed out today or tomorrow?

Me too, though I'm happy for those who want them to get them on a voluntary basis, like at some tourist sites :p .

Absolutely none, though I recognise that as a mere European, I can't be expected to know much about the 'People's Republic of Europe' :rolleyes: .

Same thing with the US - once you're in, you're in.

I don't see what your point is.

The ETA is in Spain. It probably has little reason to go to Germany.

If drug and human smuggers are getting into Italy, shouldn't the problem be fixed in Italy, rather than the border between Spain and France?

Drug smugglers get drugs into Florida and then are able to bring them to New York. Are you advocating for border checks at every state?

You're advocating something that will come with a huge price tag but which will have questionable benefits. Not worth it.

My point is if I fly into Amsterdam and get past passport control, that's it.

I can go ANYWHERE I want and nobody will know.

Here's an idea:

Schengen only applies to member country citizens. If I'm American and I fly from Brussels to Copenhagen, I still have to clear Danish passport control, but a Belgian citizen wouldn't. Simple idea that would work well.

So what? I can travel from Florida to Georgia and no one will know. Sure it's the same country but what difference does that make? Europe has fewer people and a smaller geographic area.

I'm still not sure what problem you are trying to solve -- what problem that we must have much worse in the US because of our large population and wide area. You just seem upset that Europe has less security than you'd like. Where's the problem? Where's the data indicating a problem?

hockeyinsider

Hi.

What I can't see from your original post, or subsequent postings is how this affects you and why you have a problem with it?

Yes - some people, such as those you mention from Germany, may have a problem, but it is from an economic standpoint - not terrorism. They don't want an influx of people coming to the country and taking jobs.

Terrorism, as pointed out elsewhere above has been around in Europe for centuries. Most recently the UK has had to deal with the IRA, Spain with ETA. But we have effective national security agencies that monitor suspects and act accordingly.

As you are from the US - if you have a problem with security in Europe - don't go! There are many more people, especially those on business, that appreciate the freedom afforded by the Schengen agreement. Not least it saves $$ with time not wasted at border control.

Rest assured - anyone now coming from Europe has to pass through stringent security here in the US before being allowed in.

Regards

WG

Am I the only one that misses my passport stamps? :D :confused:


I understand why some people like Schengen, but I just think Europe is slowly moving in the opposite direction. Just look at the recent 'no' votes, the immigration reforms in Denmark and other countries, the issue of mass immigration from the east, etc, etc.

Oh well.

He already stated his problem. He wants to get passport stamps at each border. I say he should fly into each country from a non-Schengen country and then he will have his passport stamps. ;) Enough of this silliness.

Bad idea unless you want to increase the public payrolls and raid the treasury.

If the Dutch and the bordering states' citizens don't care, why should you care?

Maybe. There's a reason a "flood" of Danes married to Americans live in Southern Sweden where the property prices are holding up.

Are you saying this is more about passport stamps than travel safety and security? :D

^^

Not yet but soon?
 

In the present tense, that's true. But the U.K. government wants to introduce this at a bargain price said to be GBP 300 per person.

Most of these countries already have the workers at the airport for arrivals from non-Schengen countries. It would just be a matter of re-shuffling employees and non-Schengen zone passengers.

You mentioned Denmark. CPH had a little bit of a shortage of personnel at immigration not too long ago making the lines very long on more than one occassion. How would you suggest they re-shuffle employees (when they had a shortage) and how would you move non-Schengen zone passengers there any more so than already in place without adding costs?

I cannot conceive of any way to accomplish what you suggested without adding costs of some sort or another. Taxing the public even more is your suggested option?