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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 2:21 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by FWAAA
^ for starting this thread. It demonstrates that TSA leaders do not hold a monopoly on lunacy.

About this forum's history: It was originally conceived for two reasons:

1. Several FlyerTalkers began originating threads in Newstand to rant about the TSA and frequent flyers yet they had no news story to discuss, so their threads were off-topic and were closed.

2. Several other vocal FlyerTalkers became weary of my threads (and Spiff's, too) ranting about ridiculous airport security policies and lobbied to banish discussions about airport security to this new unmoderated (at the time) forum.
Interesting...thanks for the info.
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 2:45 pm
  #32  
 
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
Or insouciant parents. Just what in ***'s name was a 10-year doing with 8-inch scissors/shears ?
Ummm hello, remember elementary school? I used long scissors in 3rd/4th grade frequently.

The following may make you want to call child protective services (nevermind the fact that I grew up safe, sound, and well-rounded), but I feel the need to share:
-At age 8 I got my first machetti... my father wouldn't put too much of an edge on it as I was young but I used it all over the farm clearing bananas and what not...
-At age 9 I started driving the family tractor and got my first pellet gun
-Age 10 the datsun pickup, a .22 rifle
-Age 11 my own high-powered hunting rifle.

...all under parental supervision. The firearms came after attending a state-run safety course that parents & kids went to together.
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 3:39 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by bdschobel
Who knows? Probably not planning to murder somebody. People really need to calm down.

Bruce
Amen, brother. One of my sons faced a suspension hearing in 7th grade for having one of those teeny tiny Swiss Army knives and using it to clean his nails. It was a good thing that I was out of the country and that my wife attended. Reading their report and hearing what what was said, I know I would have had trouble keeping my cool in the face of their idiocy. According to the rules, he should not have had it. It should have been consfiscated or returned to his parents. We should have been called and the rules made very clear.

In the trumped-up report, however, it was alleged that he was "brandishing" the one inch blade. Gales of laughter or open jawed incredulity ... you choose.

Give a small minded person a little power and watch out.

As to the girl in this story, just how much will she look on the authorities as reasonable from here on out? How much should she, you or I?

Best wishes,

Teacher49
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 6:48 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by AArlington
Would you handcuff a nine year old girl because she had scissors at school?
Clearly I would not, but if the agency in the article "requires" it, and it's a written policy, your job could be in jeapordy by not complying with the policy. in this case, it sounds like the policy needs to be revisted, versus the officer being fired, as some have suggested.
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 6:56 pm
  #35  
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Originally Posted by AArlington
So is it true that students have no privacy rights while at school? They can all be searched at any time for property missing from a teacher's desk? And during that search (if it is even legal) can be arrested for something else found? Yes, the cops did not press charges, but handcuffing a kid is extreme.
Generally speaking, unfortunately, yes. Schools operate from the legal principle of in loco parentis (in the place of the parent.) While all rights don't have to be left at the school doors, things the school deems reasonable for the health and safety of that child or for the school-at-large usually get wide latitude in court.
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 7:05 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by AArlington
But why did they arrest a 9 year old because she had scissors??? Did procedures require that too?
Based on what's reported in the news story, we just don't know. It references a state law that school officials were following, but the author of the article did not quote any of that law, or provide the section that was alleged to be violated. It talks about police procedure but also does not reference a specific procedure. It may be the agency has a "zero tolerance" for those types of violations based on their history in dealing with them. We just don't know.

It would have been nice if the author went into more details about the procedures and laws. Perhaps we might see a followup article going into a little more detail about the procedures and laws involved here, and then decide whether anyone needs to be held accountable for their actions. There's just not enough detail in the story for me.

Last edited by tom911; Dec 13, 2004 at 7:09 pm Reason: not spelling correctly today
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 7:52 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by tom911
Clearly I would not, but if the agency in the article "requires" it, and it's a written policy, your job could be in jeapordy by not complying with the policy. in this case, it sounds like the policy needs to be revisted, versus the officer being fired, as some have suggested.
Rarely has one's job been placed in jeopardy for "just following orders." I wouldn't expect most small-minded cops to use latitude or discretion or plain common sense. Not painting all cops as small-minded, just the ones who would "just do my job (if that job included handcuffing a 9 year old girl for goodness sake!).
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 7:55 pm
  #38  
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Originally Posted by mizzou65201
Generally speaking, unfortunately, yes. Schools operate from the legal principle of in loco parentis (in the place of the parent.) While all rights don't have to be left at the school doors, things the school deems reasonable for the health and safety of that child or for the school-at-large usually get wide latitude in court.
I agree with the loco part. So then another question: schools, as agents of the government can expel students based on a wide latitude search; but can contraband discovered in one of these warrantless searches be used in a criminal context?
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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 8:02 pm
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Originally Posted by AArlington
I agree with the loco part. So then another question: schools, as agents of the government can expel students based on a wide latitude search; but can contraband discovered in one of these warrantless searches be used in a criminal context?
Bingo!

The primary case on this issue is New Jersey v. T.L.O., 469 U.S. 325 (1985).

New Jersey v. T.L.O., 469 U.S. 325 (1985)
1. The Fourth Amendment's prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures applies to searches conducted by public school officials and is not limited to searches carried out by law enforcement officers. Nor are school officials exempt from the Amendment's dictates by virtue of the special nature of their authority over schoolchildren. In carrying out searches and other functions pursuant to disciplinary policies mandated by state statutes, school officials act as representatives of the State, not merely as surrogates for the parents of students, and they cannot claim the parents' immunity from the Fourth Amendment's strictures. Pp. 333-337.

2. Schoolchildren have legitimate expectations of privacy. They may find it necessary to carry with them a variety of legitimate, noncontraband items, and there is no reason to conclude that they have necessarily waived all rights to privacy in such items by bringing them onto school grounds. But striking the balance between schoolchildren's legitimate expectations of privacy and the school's equally legitimate need to maintain an environment in which learning can take place requires some easing of the restrictions to which searches by public authorities are ordinarily subject. Thus, school officials need not obtain a warrant before searching a student who is under their authority. Moreover, school officials need not be held subject to the requirement that searches be based on probable cause to believe that the subject of the search has violated or is violating the law. Rather, the legality of a search of a student should depend simply on the reasonableness, under all the circumstances, of the search. Determining the reasonableness of any search involves a determination of whether the search was justified at its inception and whether, as conducted, it was reasonably related in scope to the circumstances that justified the interference in the first place. Under ordinary circumstances the search of a student by a school official will be justified at its inception where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the search will turn up evidence that the student has violated or is violating either the law or the rules of the school. And such a search will be permissible in its scope when the measures adopted are reasonably related to the objectives of the search and not excessively intrusive in light of the student's age and sex and the nature of the infraction. Pp. 337-343.

3. Under the above standard, the search in this case was not unreasonable for Fourth Amendment purposes. First, the initial search for cigarettes was reasonable. The report to the Assistant Vice Principal that respondent had been smoking warranted a reasonable suspicion that she had cigarettes in her purse, and thus the search was justified despite the fact that the cigarettes, if found, would constitute "mere evidence" of a violation of the no-smoking rule. Second, the discovery of the rolling papers then gave rise to a reasonable suspicion that respondent was carrying marihuana as well as cigarettes in her purse, and this suspicion justified the further exploration that turned up more evidence of drug-related activities. Pp. 343-347.

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Old Dec 13, 2004 | 10:00 pm
  #40  
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Originally Posted by mizzou65201
Bingo!

The primary case on this issue is New Jersey v. T.L.O., 469 U.S. 325 (1985).
First, I'm glad I went to private schools and oversears chools .

Second, can you clarify that case you posted? The first paragraph indicates that the fourth ammendmant still applies. But the second paragraph says school officials are exempt from the warrant requirement if the search is reasonable. There is no question that students can be expelled; but can evidence that gets a student expelled (rolling papers or whatever) also be used criminally?

And in the case of the child with the scissors -- could the way those scissors were discovered be a legal search for criminal purposes? And if not, under what grounds was the child arrested?
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 1:50 pm
  #41  
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 2:16 pm
  #42  
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Originally Posted by AArlington
First, I'm glad I went to private schools and oversears chools .

Second, can you clarify that case you posted? The first paragraph indicates that the fourth ammendmant still applies. But the second paragraph says school officials are exempt from the warrant requirement if the search is reasonable. There is no question that students can be expelled; but can evidence that gets a student expelled (rolling papers or whatever) also be used criminally?

And in the case of the child with the scissors -- could the way those scissors were discovered be a legal search for criminal purposes? And if not, under what grounds was the child arrested?
Well...don't forget the Constitution doesn't reach to private schools! They could search you day and night without worrying about the Fourth Amdt.

As to your question, any evidence a school legally obtains can be used for prosecution. So, if a school search is found to be reasonable under all the circumstances, that evidence is considered legally obtained, and can be used in court.

As far as this case...it's hard to say for sure whether a court will say this search was reasonable without knowing more of the facts. This is an area where the law is pretty loose in giving the school plenty of leeway to make a case for reasonableness, thus, it's a relatively easy burden for the school to meet.
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 2:16 pm
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 5:56 pm
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mizzou65201
Well...don't forget the Constitution doesn't reach to private schools! They could search you day and night without worrying about the Fourth Amdt.
True. But not having a monopoly means my parents (and my father's employer) could take their private school dollars elsewhere .
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Old Dec 14, 2004 | 6:47 pm
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http://kyw.com/siteSearch/local_story_348221727.html

School Scissor Arrest Prompts Apology

Dec 13, 2004 10:25 pm US/Eastern
PHILADELPHIA (AP) Police and school district officials apologized Monday for the handcuffing and arrest of a 10-year-old girl who brought a pair of scissors to school in her backpack.

Police took the girl to a police station in a patrol wagon, her hands cuffed in front of her. A police spokesman said they were following department regulations that suspects should be handcuffed while in transit.

But Philadelphia Police Chief Sylvester Johnson and school district Chief Executive Officer Paul Vallas said Monday that they have called the mother of student Porsche Brown to apologize.

"As a parent, and grandparent, I do understand that the use of physical restraints on young people, especially preteens can be distressing," Johnson said in a statement.

Although the officers were following protocol, more discretion will be used in cases involving young children in the future, Johnson said.

The district said that Brown had violated a ban on bringing scissors -- which are considered potential weapons -- to school.

"But calling in local police to address such a matter involving a 10-year-old criminalized the young student who apparently meant no ill intent by her actions," the district said in a statement. "In addition, the practice of calling police off their beats to manage the vast majority of primary-level incidents is a waste of vital law enforcement resources."

The girl's suspension, initially set for five days, was amended to two days and she was expected to return to class Tuesday, district spokeswoman Barbara Farley said Monday evening. She knew of no plans to expunge the suspension given the apologies. .
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School district officials, vowing to crack down on unruly students, this year created a network of six schools for students with disciplinary problems.

While some applaud the move, other parents say schools are calling police about minor problems.
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