mizzou65201

Interesting article on how my former Congressman, Wisconsin's F. James Sensenbrenner, Jr., chair of the House Judiciary Committee, is pushing to keep driver's licenses away from illegal immigrants on security grounds.

Some quotes:
Sensenbrenner calls that a huge security loophole, since driver's licenses are used to board airplanes and enter federal buildings.

Under the language he wants, the federal government would accept as valid identification (for boarding an airplane, say) only those driver's licenses issued by states that require proof from applicants that they are in the country legally.

American Civil Liberties Union attorney Tim Edgar, whose group opposes the driver's license provision and other items sought by Sensenbrenner, said, "The question is whether the 9-11 bill should be used as a vehicle for the agenda of anti-immigration movements." His group contends that federalizing standards for driver's licenses is a step toward a national ID card, anathema to civil libertarians on the left and right.

In the Sept. 11 attacks, two of the 19 hijackers had overstayed their visas. All told, the hijackers were able to obtain more than 60 driver's licenses from various states.

"What's wrong with having a uniform national standard to apply to driver's licenses so that people who want to commit terrorist attacks can't game the system?" Sensenbrenner asked a week ago on ABC.


http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/dec04/281311.asp

Well, Jim, certainly there's no such thing as fake ID. Or passports from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, real or otherwise.

LessO2

If nothing goes "boom" in the sky in the next few years, complacency will reign, and SOME (not all) things will go back to pre-9/11 thinking.

For example, aren't they letting non-passengers go to the gate area in PIT now? Aren't there some airports going back to private screeners?

Once complacency gets a firm grip, TSA budgets will be re-thought, and hopefully reduced (or better yet, re-directed to checking cargo...how novel of an idea).

red456

It ain't difficult, costly maybe, but not difficult to get enough fake documents to obtain a real driver's license.

GeneralAviation

Quote...."The question is whether the 9-11 bill should be used as a vehicle for the agenda of anti-immigration movements....."

Anti immigration? We're talking about ILLEGAL ALIENS here, whose
presence in the U.S.A. is a FEDERAL crime.

I'm opposed to "federal" standards for drivers' licenses, because
I don't want them to be a National ID card, but giving driver's
licenses to illegal aliens is flat out wrong.....LEGAL aliens, yes.....
illegals, no.

And secure the border with Mexico, for crying out loud....
the Border Patrol has long complained about the OTM's....
"Other Than Mexicans".....who are coming into the country
illegally, including many middle Easterners....how about using
our resources to secure our southern border, instead of treating
the American people like prison inmates at our airports? Greg

studentff

Illlegal aliens should not have DLs (or welfare or govt health benefits or in-state tuition or whatever social benefit someone is trying to give them this week) because they are illegal.

The most balanced statement in the article:

Giving them a DL makes it that much easier for them to infiltrate the system.

That said, I don't think denying DL-based ID for millions of legal citizens in these states is the right answer. (Permanently deporting illegal immigrants that request DLs, welfare, food stamps, in-state tutition, etc. is much more appealing.)

Although if this thing passes, maybe it will cause the citizens of those states to question the "identity is security" nonsense at airports and elsewhere as they temporarily have to fish for a new form of ID.

Wally Bird

And the demonstrated link between illegal aliens and terrorism is .... ?

HeHateY

Well, an illegal alien does not present him or herself to an agent of the U.S. Government when entering the U.S.A.

That one can enter the U.S.A. without presenting oneself to an agent of the U.S. Government means that one can enter the country without being checked against a watch-list.

In other words, big loophole. Just like the ones that M. Atta et al took advantage of on 11 September, 2001.

mizzou65201

All well and good. Still doesn't mean that restricting drivers licenses will keep "evildoers" from getting on airplanes, past checkpoints, or in government buildings. Last time I checked, one doesn't have to be an American citizen to do any of those things. A real (or fake) passport from any country will suffice. The "we need this for security" argument is sort of a red herring.

Spiff

"Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them."

-- Moe Szyslak

"Ducking this issue calls for real leadership.

People your taxes are too high because of illegal immigrants, that's right, illegal immigrants."

-- Diamond Joe Quimby

'Get Eurass Back to Eurasia'
'The Only Good Foreigner is Rod Stewart'
'United States for United Statesianas'

-- Proposition 24 Signs

"Much Apu About Nothing", The Simpsons

HeHateY

http://www.saveourlicense.com/issue.htm

GUWonder

First, most US citizens don't have documentation to prove their citizenship status. So add an additional cost for getting a license at the time of issuance/renewal. Also add in the cost to the taxpayer of a back-end state-to-state-to-federal database. [By the way, if you are a victim of identity theft, expect big, big, big headaches in this regard.]

Second, the push is to make special category DLs for foreigners that indicate their "alien" status. Perhaps a cartoonish Martian or a "Devil" on the license is appropriate? [I wonder where they got this idea? 1930s & '40s Germany?]

Verifiable identity (vis-a-vis legitimate documents) does little to nothing for security. [This issue did not play a role on or in relationship to 9/11. Mentions of such are based largely on conjecture linked mostly to a belief that disrupting support networks disrupts operational networks of terrorism. Unfortunately, the disruption of support networks does little to disrupt operational networks, and an examination of the numerical data may even suggest that there is causation/correlation between the disruption of support networks and the promulgation of operational networks. (By the way, the 9/11 Commission report has some flaws in it.)]

Those who will be questioned most about "identity" will be those who "don't look like 'typical' Americans". Non-European origin, foreign-born, expatriates, and the like will get harassed more often as racist profiling is implemented via this backdoor.

Most importantly, identity is not security and identity and identity documents are not secure -- and perhaps they can never be made such.

studentff

Isn't a birth cert. considered proof of citizenship?

For better or worse most US citizens have to show either that, or DL + SSN card, or a passport, to get a legit. job.

(I agree however, with the rest of your post that ID != security and ID had nothing to do with 9/11.)

mizzou65201

If the birth certificate is certified, and reflects birth in the US, then yes. For US citizens, it's the granddaddy document that's the basis for getting the SSN, passport, and in many states, your original-very-first-time-DL.

KosraeTV

ID's do not mean much in regards to security IMO. Some Pacific Island countries sell or sold passports in the past. Plus, and here's the kicker, many of these Pacific Islands residents are classified as full residents of the USA and are not required to have a VISA or GreenCard or anything to enter, live, get benefits etc... They used to enter with an island drivers license or a copy of the Island Birth Certificate up until two years ago. Many people can obtain documents abroad and enter the USA, plus IMO any organization that has decent capacities to create some chaos should be able to obtain fake documents anyways.

But.... and here's where I'll probably get flamed on, what's wrong with proving citizenship to get a DL or other documents / benefits??? I thought the ACLU was concerned with "American's" Civil Liberties, and not the Illegal Immigrants Civil Liberties. What is wrong with requiring people to have either legal entry into the USA or be a citizen to have a DL? I see nothing wrong with tightening up laws regarding Illegal entry into the USA. If the policy makers need to use 9/11 as a way to push these laws then it is a sad state in American Politics that we are more worried about offending and protecting Illegal's then we are about Legal Citizens.

I look at this from a different view, try living overseas, many of the countries take millions of your and my tax dollars each year and bad mouth / hate the USA. The residency requirements and paperwork and rules and regulations for American's to live overseas is not always simple depending on the country. To travel, sure a US Passport is a wonderful thing, but that is travel, many countries want the american tourist money and then for the American's to get out. Having gone through a lot of difficult times overseas I have no problem with laws that make it difficult for ILLEGALS inside the USA no matter how the lawmakers have to create them.

GUWonder

It is considered as such for practical purposes, but there are certain individuals with birth certificates issued in the US who legally cannot be classified as citizens even if they so desire to use said birth certificate as the basis of claiming US citizenship. [The principal party engaged in legal violation in such cases would be the US government if it recognizes such individuals as US citizens.] Amongst the categories of people who possess US birth certificates but are not to be recognized by the US government as US citizens are certain dependents of diplomats who happen to be born in the US.

That's right. Proof of ID and SSN (or the equivalent thereof) is required to get a legitimate job.