Yet another laptop blowed up by the TSA
Nov 21, 2004, 9:37 pm
#106
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Posts: 707
Usual disclaimer: not legal advice, personal opinion only.
Themicah is as close as you're going to get to a "good" answer, I'm afraid. State laws, in general, give local law enforcement broad power to act in emergency situations. An instance of an electronic device both visually (x-ray) and mechanically (swab) indicating the presence of explosives or an explosive device certainly rises to this level. Really, in almost every circumstance involving law enforcement, your remedies are generally limited to after-the-fact measures. In the law's eyes, law enforcement would be useless if it can't make on-the-spot decisions and orders that have full force and effect. So, unless you're a judge with jurisdiction and can sign an injunction on the spot, you are limited to various legal claims seeking after-the-fact relief, if the facts are on your side.
What would those facts be? If you could show that the officers acted in bad faith (clear abuse), or had not been trained properly. A claim against the company that made the swab machine would be a little tougher, but still an option if the facts backed you up. In a run-of-the-mill circumstance, a mix of a) governmental immunity and/or b) the "good faith" defense would generally prevent you from recovering from the police.
This doesn't just apply to laptops at the airport, either. Let's say the cops execute a bust on your next-door neighbors, and in the rush, break your fence, trample your plants, maybe even break down your door. Who pays? At least here in California, the state supreme court has held that police may reimburse you for PR reasons or just because they're nice, but legally aren't responsible for incidental property damage done in the proper course of duties, and that such damage does not constitute a "taking" under the Fifth Amendment.
Bottom line? Invest in a secure FTP site (or two) to backup your valuable data at remote locations. A new $3,000 laptop is nothing compared to the cost of litigating this kind of thing.
(On a side note, consider this from the police's liability perspective. If your laptop isn't a bomb, and the police blow it up, it costs a city maybe $4,000 in actual damages if they're willing to reimburse you flat-out. If your laptop is a bomb, and they fail to act...I'll leave you to figure out the worst-case liability scenario there. Just the legal costs alone are enough to tip the scales in favor of "caution.")
Themicah is as close as you're going to get to a "good" answer, I'm afraid. State laws, in general, give local law enforcement broad power to act in emergency situations. An instance of an electronic device both visually (x-ray) and mechanically (swab) indicating the presence of explosives or an explosive device certainly rises to this level. Really, in almost every circumstance involving law enforcement, your remedies are generally limited to after-the-fact measures. In the law's eyes, law enforcement would be useless if it can't make on-the-spot decisions and orders that have full force and effect. So, unless you're a judge with jurisdiction and can sign an injunction on the spot, you are limited to various legal claims seeking after-the-fact relief, if the facts are on your side.
What would those facts be? If you could show that the officers acted in bad faith (clear abuse), or had not been trained properly. A claim against the company that made the swab machine would be a little tougher, but still an option if the facts backed you up. In a run-of-the-mill circumstance, a mix of a) governmental immunity and/or b) the "good faith" defense would generally prevent you from recovering from the police.
This doesn't just apply to laptops at the airport, either. Let's say the cops execute a bust on your next-door neighbors, and in the rush, break your fence, trample your plants, maybe even break down your door. Who pays? At least here in California, the state supreme court has held that police may reimburse you for PR reasons or just because they're nice, but legally aren't responsible for incidental property damage done in the proper course of duties, and that such damage does not constitute a "taking" under the Fifth Amendment.
Bottom line? Invest in a secure FTP site (or two) to backup your valuable data at remote locations. A new $3,000 laptop is nothing compared to the cost of litigating this kind of thing.
(On a side note, consider this from the police's liability perspective. If your laptop isn't a bomb, and the police blow it up, it costs a city maybe $4,000 in actual damages if they're willing to reimburse you flat-out. If your laptop is a bomb, and they fail to act...I'll leave you to figure out the worst-case liability scenario there. Just the legal costs alone are enough to tip the scales in favor of "caution.")
Dec 9, 2005, 8:34 pm
#107
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2
They blew up my laptop
I am the person who had the laptop destroyed last year by the TSA, FBI, and EOD. There FBI found no evidence of a bomb in the computer pieces, and the computer was never a direct threat to security. I am a pilot, and yes I was tired because I had been flying all night.
I requested compensation for the actual cost of my computer, and the TSA denied my claim. I never even received an apology from any of the involved agencies. If you have any advice, please feel free to e-mail me directly or post to this board. My e-mail address is [email protected]
Thank you
I requested compensation for the actual cost of my computer, and the TSA denied my claim. I never even received an apology from any of the involved agencies. If you have any advice, please feel free to e-mail me directly or post to this board. My e-mail address is [email protected]
Thank you
Originally Posted by mizzou65201
Usual disclaimer: not legal advice, personal opinion only.
Themicah is as close as you're going to get to a "good" answer, I'm afraid. State laws, in general, give local law enforcement broad power to act in emergency situations. An instance of an electronic device both visually (x-ray) and mechanically (swab) indicating the presence of explosives or an explosive device certainly rises to this level. Really, in almost every circumstance involving law enforcement, your remedies are generally limited to after-the-fact measures. In the law's eyes, law enforcement would be useless if it can't make on-the-spot decisions and orders that have full force and effect. So, unless you're a judge with jurisdiction and can sign an injunction on the spot, you are limited to various legal claims seeking after-the-fact relief, if the facts are on your side.
What would those facts be? If you could show that the officers acted in bad faith (clear abuse), or had not been trained properly. A claim against the company that made the swab machine would be a little tougher, but still an option if the facts backed you up. In a run-of-the-mill circumstance, a mix of a) governmental immunity and/or b) the "good faith" defense would generally prevent you from recovering from the police.
This doesn't just apply to laptops at the airport, either. Let's say the cops execute a bust on your next-door neighbors, and in the rush, break your fence, trample your plants, maybe even break down your door. Who pays? At least here in California, the state supreme court has held that police may reimburse you for PR reasons or just because they're nice, but legally aren't responsible for incidental property damage done in the proper course of duties, and that such damage does not constitute a "taking" under the Fifth Amendment.
Bottom line? Invest in a secure FTP site (or two) to backup your valuable data at remote locations. A new $3,000 laptop is nothing compared to the cost of litigating this kind of thing.
(On a side note, consider this from the police's liability perspective. If your laptop isn't a bomb, and the police blow it up, it costs a city maybe $4,000 in actual damages if they're willing to reimburse you flat-out. If your laptop is a bomb, and they fail to act...I'll leave you to figure out the worst-case liability scenario there. Just the legal costs alone are enough to tip the scales in favor of "caution.")
Themicah is as close as you're going to get to a "good" answer, I'm afraid. State laws, in general, give local law enforcement broad power to act in emergency situations. An instance of an electronic device both visually (x-ray) and mechanically (swab) indicating the presence of explosives or an explosive device certainly rises to this level. Really, in almost every circumstance involving law enforcement, your remedies are generally limited to after-the-fact measures. In the law's eyes, law enforcement would be useless if it can't make on-the-spot decisions and orders that have full force and effect. So, unless you're a judge with jurisdiction and can sign an injunction on the spot, you are limited to various legal claims seeking after-the-fact relief, if the facts are on your side.
What would those facts be? If you could show that the officers acted in bad faith (clear abuse), or had not been trained properly. A claim against the company that made the swab machine would be a little tougher, but still an option if the facts backed you up. In a run-of-the-mill circumstance, a mix of a) governmental immunity and/or b) the "good faith" defense would generally prevent you from recovering from the police.
This doesn't just apply to laptops at the airport, either. Let's say the cops execute a bust on your next-door neighbors, and in the rush, break your fence, trample your plants, maybe even break down your door. Who pays? At least here in California, the state supreme court has held that police may reimburse you for PR reasons or just because they're nice, but legally aren't responsible for incidental property damage done in the proper course of duties, and that such damage does not constitute a "taking" under the Fifth Amendment.
Bottom line? Invest in a secure FTP site (or two) to backup your valuable data at remote locations. A new $3,000 laptop is nothing compared to the cost of litigating this kind of thing.
(On a side note, consider this from the police's liability perspective. If your laptop isn't a bomb, and the police blow it up, it costs a city maybe $4,000 in actual damages if they're willing to reimburse you flat-out. If your laptop is a bomb, and they fail to act...I'll leave you to figure out the worst-case liability scenario there. Just the legal costs alone are enough to tip the scales in favor of "caution.")
Dec 9, 2005, 8:52 pm
#108
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Originally Posted by leetom101
I am the person who had the laptop destroyed last year by the TSA, FBI, and EOD. There FBI found no evidence of a bomb in the computer pieces, and the computer was never a direct threat to security. I am a pilot, and yes I was tired because I had been flying all night.
I requested compensation for the actual cost of my computer, and the TSA denied my claim. I never even received an apology from any of the involved agencies. If you have any advice, please feel free to e-mail me directly or post to this board. My e-mail address is [email protected]
Thank you
I requested compensation for the actual cost of my computer, and the TSA denied my claim. I never even received an apology from any of the involved agencies. If you have any advice, please feel free to e-mail me directly or post to this board. My e-mail address is [email protected]
Thank you
1) you were detained without being charged with a crime or arrested. Your rights appear to have been violated.
2) the government 'took' your property without compensation. At the very least, you are owed for the replacement cost of the property, but it's possible a like-minded attorney who wants to make an example of this case, might be willing to file a lawsuit to remedy this issue
Dec 9, 2005, 10:52 pm
#109
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Originally Posted by leetom101
I am the person who had the laptop destroyed last year by the TSA, FBI, and EOD. There FBI found no evidence of a bomb in the computer pieces, and the computer was never a direct threat to security. I am a pilot, and yes I was tired because I had been flying all night.
I requested compensation for the actual cost of my computer, and the TSA denied my claim. I never even received an apology from any of the involved agencies. If you have any advice, please feel free to e-mail me directly or post to this board. My e-mail address is [email protected]
I requested compensation for the actual cost of my computer, and the TSA denied my claim. I never even received an apology from any of the involved agencies. If you have any advice, please feel free to e-mail me directly or post to this board. My e-mail address is [email protected]
Sorry it was under these circumstances.
You were that day's victim of Big Catch Syndrome, a malady affecting too many of the participants of the USA's airport security mechanism. Day after day, the empty haystack must wear on them. Then, suddenly, they see a blasting cap in your hard drive (morons) and produce 11 positive explosive swab results. They finally found what they have been searching for ever since the TSA was formed: Terrorist Bomb in New Bern, NC. Unfreakinbelievable.
Having purchased and installed a complete mechanism to find bombs (that aren't really there), it's only natural that they wouldn't allow you to take the laptop apart in some remote corner of the tarmac to prove its benign nature - Hell, NO, they have to use their discombooberator (quite possibly, the only redeeming part of this entire sorry episode - see eyecue's post where he coins the new term) to destroy your computer and detain you overnight (Hey, everybody - we caught Bin Laden's Right Hand Man, right here in New Bern).
Anyway, bocastephen's advice is good: contact an attorney who isn't afraid of taking on a bunch of power-tripping morons (the dumbasses who violated you and your property).
Dec 10, 2005, 8:22 pm
#110
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Didn't realize that the local LEO's and FBI have caught the "Big Catch Syndrome". Because once the TSA thought maybe there was a bomb, the police would have been called and taken control of the laptop. The TSA did not blow up the computer. The local police or FBI did. That's who your beef is with.
Dec 10, 2005, 9:58 pm
#111
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by bambi47
Didn't realize that the local LEO's and FBI have caught the "Big Catch Syndrome". Because once the TSA thought maybe there was a bomb, the police would have been called and taken control of the laptop. The TSA did not blow up the computer. The local police or FBI did. That's who your beef is with.
Dec 10, 2005, 10:10 pm
#112
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Originally Posted by bambi47
Didn't realize that the local LEO's and FBI have caught the "Big Catch Syndrome".
Dec 10, 2005, 10:23 pm
#113
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I do understand how this kind of thing happens. unfortunately, it has little to do with the victim and everything to do with big dumb organizations with large budgets that 'need protection'.
Instead of doing the sensible thing and, I dunno, putting the laptop owner in a cordoned off room or remote area to disassemble it... (plastic explosives aren't *that* powerful, especially in the quantity that could be stuffed in a disk drive), they blow it up to show they are 'tough'. just like they shot someone 4 times to 'stop the bad guy'. they shoot or blow up and then try to excuse their actions.
Some, ehem, organizations(with professional standards) , will hold a laptop and thoroughly examine it, and then send it along later. Pathetic that the US is incapable of doing so.
Instead of doing the sensible thing and, I dunno, putting the laptop owner in a cordoned off room or remote area to disassemble it... (plastic explosives aren't *that* powerful, especially in the quantity that could be stuffed in a disk drive), they blow it up to show they are 'tough'. just like they shot someone 4 times to 'stop the bad guy'. they shoot or blow up and then try to excuse their actions.
Some, ehem, organizations(with professional standards) , will hold a laptop and thoroughly examine it, and then send it along later. Pathetic that the US is incapable of doing so.
Dec 12, 2005, 11:31 am
#114
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,015
See, leetom101, just because you're a pilot doesn't mean you might NOT be a lying terrorist, too. I mean, what could happen to us all if your hard drive ever got into the cockpit with you...
Good luck on your letter of apology from TSA. It's a form letter, which is such a preposterous oxymoron that when I posted mine down in the basement, even the mice haven't come back...
Good luck on your letter of apology from TSA. It's a form letter, which is such a preposterous oxymoron that when I posted mine down in the basement, even the mice haven't come back...
Dec 12, 2005, 11:38 am
#115
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Just one more note...if you are considering retaining legal counsel with the thought of persuing this matter, you will probably want to avoid posting any further details of the incident, or discussing it with anyone, until you talk to a lawyer.
Dec 28, 2005, 10:52 am
#116
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2
I appreciate everyone's help. I didn't even get a form letter, just a denial for the small amount I was requesting. I just got a letter today written by the FBI that explains no bomb or detonator was in the laptop.
The TSA instructed the Cherry Point Marine Corp to destroy the computer.
I realize the TSA may have erred on the side of safety, but they still made an error. I would feel better if the TSA just owned up to their mistake, but they decided to put a team of attorneys to work instead.
Anyway, thanks again for your help.
The TSA instructed the Cherry Point Marine Corp to destroy the computer.
I realize the TSA may have erred on the side of safety, but they still made an error. I would feel better if the TSA just owned up to their mistake, but they decided to put a team of attorneys to work instead.
Anyway, thanks again for your help.
Dec 28, 2005, 10:59 am
#117
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Originally Posted by leetom101
I appreciate everyone's help. I didn't even get a form letter, just a denial for the small amount I was requesting. I just got a letter today written by the FBI that explains no bomb or detonator was in the laptop.
The TSA instructed the Cherry Point Marine Corp to destroy the computer.
I realize the TSA may have erred on the side of safety, but they still made an error. I would feel better if the TSA just owned up to their mistake, but they decided to put a team of attorneys to work instead.
Anyway, thanks again for your help.
The TSA instructed the Cherry Point Marine Corp to destroy the computer.
I realize the TSA may have erred on the side of safety, but they still made an error. I would feel better if the TSA just owned up to their mistake, but they decided to put a team of attorneys to work instead.
Anyway, thanks again for your help.
Dec 28, 2005, 12:51 pm
#118
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 757
Your local ACLU should be able to help get you in touch with a lawyer that'd be interested in doing this pro bono. Some of those lawyers have "Big Catch" syndrome too.
As far as detention overnight for questioning, I think (even without the Patriot Act) LEOs can detain people for some number of hours for questioning without charging them, but I've never had any first hand experience with this.
As far as detention overnight for questioning, I think (even without the Patriot Act) LEOs can detain people for some number of hours for questioning without charging them, but I've never had any first hand experience with this.
Dec 28, 2005, 1:11 pm
#119
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I'm not the litigious type, however. You really should contact the ACLU. If you don't care about the $$$$, at least do it to make the point.
It may not make a difference but it may help someone else down the line, who ends up in a similar situation, or worse.
Plus, are there no FT'ers that do this kind of civil lit floating around?
It may not make a difference but it may help someone else down the line, who ends up in a similar situation, or worse.
Plus, are there no FT'ers that do this kind of civil lit floating around?
Jan 3, 2006, 10:39 am
#120
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,015
CameraGuy? You still out there? Whew! I finally have an answer to your Nov. 5 posting, or posing, of THE question I've been laboring over since you posted it, yea, these many, MANY days and sleepless nights ago:
"How are we safer now that TSA has blown up a laptop which did NOT contain a bomb??????????" (or something to that effect)...
(Stand back for the "ta-daaa)...
TA-DAAAA!
We are safer because by now all the shrapnel from the being-exploded laptop has landed and nobody was struck by it!
(Answer brought to you by Lumpy and like-minded folks who know that the Eiffel Tower was built so that they could install a flashing light on top to prevent hot air balloons running into it.)
There ya go, CameraGuy! Can't fool ME....
"How are we safer now that TSA has blown up a laptop which did NOT contain a bomb??????????" (or something to that effect)...
(Stand back for the "ta-daaa)...
TA-DAAAA!
We are safer because by now all the shrapnel from the being-exploded laptop has landed and nobody was struck by it!
(Answer brought to you by Lumpy and like-minded folks who know that the Eiffel Tower was built so that they could install a flashing light on top to prevent hot air balloons running into it.)
There ya go, CameraGuy! Can't fool ME....