TSA and NCIC
Apr 12, 2011, 6:17 am
#91
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IMO, it would depend on the reason the TSA gives for calling the LEO over.
Apr 12, 2011, 7:16 am
#92
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To run a NCIC check you need an identity. If you (cop) have no identity for the subject then you have to detain him/her in order to get one. AFAIK all stop-and-identify laws do require RS, so it would seem that being summoned to an airport checkpoint is a convenient way to bypass this requirement in that it assumes RS exists merely by the fact of having been summoned.
That may well be the practice, but I have yet to see any of the LEOs here cite statutes or court opinions which legitimize it. If there are none then maybe they should reacquaint themselves with 42 USC 1983.
Apr 12, 2011, 8:56 am
#93
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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This what confuses me.
To run a NCIC check you need an identity. If you (cop) have no identity for the subject then you have to detain him/her in order to get one. AFAIK all stop-and-identify laws do require RS, so it would seem that being summoned to an airport checkpoint is a convenient way to bypass this requirement in that it assumes RS exists merely by the fact of having been summoned.
That may well be the practice, but I have yet to see any of the LEOs here cite statutes or court opinions which legitimize it. If there are none then maybe they should reacquaint themselves with 42 USC 1983.
To run a NCIC check you need an identity. If you (cop) have no identity for the subject then you have to detain him/her in order to get one. AFAIK all stop-and-identify laws do require RS, so it would seem that being summoned to an airport checkpoint is a convenient way to bypass this requirement in that it assumes RS exists merely by the fact of having been summoned.
That may well be the practice, but I have yet to see any of the LEOs here cite statutes or court opinions which legitimize it. If there are none then maybe they should reacquaint themselves with 42 USC 1983.
Apr 12, 2011, 9:01 am
#94
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No, that's why I'm asking. Where did the RS to detain the passenger come from? Did the call from the TSO constitute RS? Otherwise, to stop me from walking on, and to obtain my story, he makes an investigative stop, and where did the RS come from?
Apr 12, 2011, 10:07 am
#95
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Exactly. The TSA can not detain me. If I start walking away after being screened, they can't do anything but call a LEO. And that LEO will not first spend time with the TSO getting the story. He will order me to stop, and at that point I am detained. We then find out whether the TSA has caught its' first terrorist or other legitimate reason, or whether they're griping about the usual comments regarding their parentage. The LEO instigates an investigative stop at the behest of the TSO, and has no reasonable suspicion other than the call from TSA (and given that the majority of calls to law enforcement by TSA are resolved in the passengers favor, a call from TSA can not be prima facie reasonable).
The point I'm trying to make here is that the TSO in these instances is no different than a citizen, store employee, shopkeeper, or whomever that would request an officer's presence outside of the airport. I can't tell you how many calls I took from store employees or owners about transients disrupting their business, drinking in public, "being loud", basically doing whatever transients do. As long as the person calling the cops could articulate some reason, however minor, we were pretty much obligated to dispatch an officer. What actions they took from there were up to them and depended on the situation they found upon arrival. I would hope, however, that too many instances of TSOs crying wolf at checkpoints and demanding an officer for stupid reasons would lead to some retraining and better communication about when to call for an officer with the local airport police.
Put yourself in this situation, you're at home and you find somebody on your front lawn staring in your living room window. You call the cops and tell them there is somebody standing on my lawn staring in my window, he's suspicious. They dispatch an officer and when the officer arrives they find the guy a block away walking down the street minding his own business. Based upon your call and description of what he was doing, the officer could reasonably ask the person to stop. I know it's not quite the same scenario but officers are going to take reasonable actions based upon what callers tell them or describe to them.
Again, if you think that a TSO ever calls the cops on you for a bogus reason, by all means make a complaint with TSA.
Apr 12, 2011, 10:12 am
#96
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I hypothesize that one of the key reasons such false positive arrests are so rare is that LEOs generally don't set up arbitrary checkpoints on public street corners, at stadiums, or at airports and run 100% of passers-by through NCIC or CJIS.
I believe that if TSA checkpoints were turned into 100% NCIC or CJIS checks, the number of false arrests would go way up simply because of the probabilities.
I believe that if TSA checkpoints were turned into 100% NCIC or CJIS checks, the number of false arrests would go way up simply because of the probabilities.
Apr 12, 2011, 10:18 am
#97
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IF TSA is checking against other sources then most of the screening being done is pointless since the likely-hood of the person being a threat has already been determined.
Apr 12, 2011, 10:29 am
#98
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More importantly is that also not how Shahzad was caught? Vehicle registration information led investigators to Shahzad and they found out he was already on an Emirates Air flight bound for Dubai?
Apr 12, 2011, 10:40 am
#99
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I would hope that an officer would treat a call from a TSO to respond to a checkpoint just as they would treat a call from any other citizen, shopkeeper, or anybody that wants their presence outside of the airport. A reason needs to be articulated as to why an officer is needed and that's why questions should be asked of the caller/complainant before the officer is dispatched or arrives. If the TSO is calling for an officer because they're describing somebody as unruly, disruptive, loud, yelling, etc. you're right, if you're walking off when the officer is arriving they will probably ask you to stop so they can talk to you. If that happens, I'd stop and be as polite and calm with the officer as possible. Once the encounter is over, I'd make a complaint against the TSO for calling the cops and having me detained needlessly. If you're gone from the checkpoint before the cops arrive and no further problem exists, maybe the officer will go look for you after talking to the TSO if they're bored, who knows.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the TSO in these instances is no different than a citizen, store employee, shopkeeper, or whomever that would request an officer's presence outside of the airport. I can't tell you how many calls I took from store employees or owners about transients disrupting their business, drinking in public, "being loud", basically doing whatever transients do. As long as the person calling the cops could articulate some reason, however minor, we were pretty much obligated to dispatch an officer. What actions they took from there were up to them and depended on the situation they found upon arrival. I would hope, however, that too many instances of TSOs crying wolf at checkpoints and demanding an officer for stupid reasons would lead to some retraining and better communication about when to call for an officer with the local airport police.
Put yourself in this situation, you're at home and you find somebody on your front lawn staring in your living room window. You call the cops and tell them there is somebody standing on my lawn staring in my window, he's suspicious. They dispatch an officer and when the officer arrives they find the guy a block away walking down the street minding his own business. Based upon your call and description of what he was doing, the officer could reasonably ask the person to stop. I know it's not quite the same scenario but officers are going to take reasonable actions based upon what callers tell them or describe to them.
Again, if you think that a TSO ever calls the cops on you for a bogus reason, by all means make a complaint with TSA.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the TSO in these instances is no different than a citizen, store employee, shopkeeper, or whomever that would request an officer's presence outside of the airport. I can't tell you how many calls I took from store employees or owners about transients disrupting their business, drinking in public, "being loud", basically doing whatever transients do. As long as the person calling the cops could articulate some reason, however minor, we were pretty much obligated to dispatch an officer. What actions they took from there were up to them and depended on the situation they found upon arrival. I would hope, however, that too many instances of TSOs crying wolf at checkpoints and demanding an officer for stupid reasons would lead to some retraining and better communication about when to call for an officer with the local airport police.
Put yourself in this situation, you're at home and you find somebody on your front lawn staring in your living room window. You call the cops and tell them there is somebody standing on my lawn staring in my window, he's suspicious. They dispatch an officer and when the officer arrives they find the guy a block away walking down the street minding his own business. Based upon your call and description of what he was doing, the officer could reasonably ask the person to stop. I know it's not quite the same scenario but officers are going to take reasonable actions based upon what callers tell them or describe to them.
Again, if you think that a TSO ever calls the cops on you for a bogus reason, by all means make a complaint with TSA.
I have no idea honestly. I would not be surprised, however, if the secure flight information could be accessed by law enforcement for a valid reason. Let's say you have a homicide or serious crime committed in your community and the cops have a very strong person of interest that they want to talk to. I'm not sure, but I would strongly suspect that they would have the ability to inquire of the secure flight information system whether or not that person purchases tickets for travel and be ready to intercept them at an appropriate time. Somehow I doubt that police departments are going to inquire of secure flight for run of the mill minor warrants and what not.
Nope-- that was APIS!
Apr 22, 2011, 6:45 pm
#101
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
I have no idea honestly. I would not be surprised, however, if the secure flight information could be accessed by law enforcement for a valid reason. Let's say you have a homicide or serious crime committed in your community and the cops have a very strong person of interest that they want to talk to. I'm not sure, but I would strongly suspect that they would have the ability to inquire of the secure flight information system whether or not that person purchases tickets for travel and be ready to intercept them at an appropriate time. Somehow I doubt that police departments are going to inquire of secure flight for run of the mill minor warrants and what not.
My guess would be that if LEO’s had reason to determine if someone (a suspect?) was intending to fly out of their jurisdiction then they have other means of finding out. It’s possible that they could contact the main TSA operations center in Langley, and from there they might be directed to someone who could make the system spit out info on possible passengers, but it’s unlikely. A phone call wont do it, there is no way to tell if that person calling is indeed a LEO, a request like that would have to come through channels. And as we all know, with the speed that government works, the suspect(?) could be half way to Alpha Centauri by the time the LEO reaches the right person with the right access.
Apr 22, 2011, 6:56 pm
#102
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: PHX
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There is some kind of international database for wanted persons, I believe it's run by INTERPOL. Here's an article from the local newspaper in Phoenix that details attempts to track down and capture a Kuwaiti citizen that fled the country after a fatal hit and run accident several years ago.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...iver-case.html