Ari

I would be remiss not to mention one additional detail about street encounters based on reasonable suspicion (see Terry, Hiibel): An LEO need not articulate to a citizen her reasonable suspicion for detention, a simple patdown or a compelled ID-- that is for later. A simple example would be if you are innocently walking down the street engaging in no criminal activity whatsover and an officer appears, instructs you to put your hands on your head at gunpoint and searches you. There is no reason whatsoever for this-- except that you match the description of the suspect in an armed robbery that occourred down the street 5 minutes ago! The officer need not justify herself to you though she should explain her conduct once she is assured of her safety; to do otherwise would be unprofessional.

Generally, the best course of action is to obey the officer's physical instructions so as not to get shot and then, as soon as the situation allows, determine if you are free to go. (Hint: If you are in a 'stop and identify' jurisdiction and an officer conveys to you that you are not free to go, she already believes she has reasonable suspicion to detain you and you should identify yourself without delay if asked. The other option, depending on how much of a jerk the officer is, is being searched for an ID or being charged with violating a 'stop and identify' statute).

(emphasis added)

Actually, in many jurisdictions, the answer is still quite black and white.

TSORon

TSA in general does not have access to the NCIC system except through direct LEO intervention. There “may” be some office far up the food chain that has access, but the TSO’s at the airport do not.

SecureFlight is an automated system and again the TSO’s at the airport do not have access to it.

All these fun legal arguments and no PTravel? What’s up with that?

studentff

My concern is false positives, just like the no-fly-list. Once they start dragnet searches without cause to do so, you have more false positives. Just like the no-fly list. I have a common first/last name, not John Smith common, but common enough that there are three people at my company with the same first/last name. I have no idea if my DOB is "common," but I'm of an age that a lot of people are.

Some cop runs a my name through NCIC, bad luck has it that my name matches and DOB is similar to a match, worse luck has it that the actual perp is white and my approx height/build, and I get thrown on the ground, glasses broken, handcuffed, banged up, tossed in jail, and quite frankly traumatized and terrified for 12-24 hours while it gets sorted out. I would not do well in jail, period. And when it's finally fixed, I probably don't even get an apology let alone compensation.

Good Guy

When I was on patrol in Texas, we had a call come out about an armed robbery. Lo and behold, the vehicle in front of me matched the description down to the occupants. I initiated a felony traffic stop, had everyone out of the car at gunpoint, when the call came out that another unit had the actual robbers. I did apologize and explained to the occupants what had happened. And, no, I did not run them through NCIC. So it does happen.

polonius

I am quite certain that the TSA cannot search the NCIC. In one of my many unpleasant encounters with the TSA in which I was threatened with arrest, the TSA called in LEOs to assist. The LEOs questioned me and demanded identification. I would not give them any ID, but verbally provided my name, DOB and home address. They radioed this in to NCIC, and then announced that my information "didn't match". I told them fine, then fix it -- delete all the information on me in the NCIC: I never gave permission for this data to be stored there in the first place. But in any event, I am not responsible for the accuracy of data in a database I do not control.

At no point was any of this shared with TSA, so I do not believe they have any access to it.

SWCPHX

And as mentioned before, that's why if you were run through NCIC and the officer had several hits or possibles to wade through, he or she would use information like the last four of your SSN, previous addresses, scars, marks, tattoos, etc. False positive arrests from NCIC or other CJIS hits are very very rare.

SWCPHX

I'll second Ari's well worded and reasoned answers.

I actually thought that we were answering Boggie Dog's specific question about RS needed for an NCIC check but (s)he wasn't liking the answer.

essxjay

We've deleted a few comments for running too far afield from the OP and would appreciate everyone refocusing on the original concern. Thanks.

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essxjay
TS/S moderator

Bearcat06

Not at the Airport level....but I suspect at TSA HQ where they are doing No Fly/Secure Fly/whatever other lists they have....they've got access.....

One has to go through the FBI to get access since they run the system......I am sure TSA has been able to articulate the need for it at the HQ level....

Ari

I don't know about the higher levels but, because the TSA has their own LE (FAMs among others), and because the TSA has quick access to JTTF agents (see George v. Reihl et. al.), the issue doesn't have to go all the way up to HQ or the higher levels-- an NCIC check can be done at a much lower level.

studentff

I hypothesize that one of the key reasons such false positive arrests are so rare is that LEOs generally don't set up arbitrary checkpoints on public street corners, at stadiums, or at airports and run 100% of passers-by through NCIC or CJIS.

I believe that if TSA checkpoints were turned into 100% NCIC or CJIS checks, the number of false arrests would go way up simply because of the probabilities.

Ari

That is an excellent point.

You were, but I think there was confusion about detention to run someone through NCIC vs. running someone through NCIC without a detention.

Boggie Dog

I think there is some confusion over what I did or did not understand about running a persons name through NCIC.

The statement that I found objectionable and still do was this:

The practice as stated above may be permissible but in my mind a poor practice. I do not see any way the RS standards are reach just by being called by TSA.

Firebug4

The statement you are finding objectionable is not quite correct. RS is not needed at all to run someone in NCIC. RS is needed if the officer is detaining you for the purpose of running you through NCIC or any other purpose. That said an officer is given a certain amount of latitude by the courts to investigate a situation that he or she is called to. This is the premise of an investigative detention. The detention must be for a reasonable amount of time (which is NOT defined by the court) but the officer must be able to show (the court at a later time) that the investigation is progressing. Once the progress of that investigation stagnant or goes stale the officer must release the subject.

FB

MaximumSisu

And, you should stress, said investigative detention requires reasonable suspicion. Are you saying that because TSA calls a law enforcement officer, that the officer has reasonable suspicion re: the passenger BEFORE the officer himself investigates?