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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 5:41 pm
  #1  
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Rights as flyer

Hi, after the whole mess that these body scanners, pat downs, and TSA officer violations, I would like to know if there is a source that may be able to tell me ALL of my rights as a flyer. As, well, I would like to know how my age factors into this as well. I am 16.


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Oliver.
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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 5:50 pm
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Originally Posted by OliverRayde
Hi, after the whole mess that these body scanners, pat downs, and TSA officer violations, I would like to know if there is a source that may be able to tell me ALL of my rights as a flyer. As, well, I would like to know how my age factors into this as well. I am 16.


I appreciate this community's hard work.
Oliver.
The very same rights you have as a citizen. You must be able to understand what they are, though.
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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 5:52 pm
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Originally Posted by OliverRayde
Hi, after the whole mess that these body scanners, pat downs, and TSA officer violations, I would like to know if there is a source that may be able to tell me ALL of my rights as a flyer. As, well, I would like to know how my age factors into this as well. I am 16.


I appreciate this community's hard work.
Oliver.
The Bill of Rights.
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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 6:11 pm
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Originally Posted by Deinonychus
The Bill of Rights.
No, the bill of rights protects you from warrantless search and seizure. You have no such rights when you travel. That moronic TSO three years ago in MKE was actually 100% correct. "There is no bill of rights in here." And the current occupant of the white house, mister I'm on your side, does nothing to stop it, even though he could do so wit hthe stroke of a pen.

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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 6:13 pm
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Originally Posted by VideoPaul
You have no such rights when you travel.
Oh yeah, I forgot.
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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 6:21 pm
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There should be a sign at every check point:

"Abandon all rights, Ye who enter here"
Have a Nice Day!

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Old Nov 24, 2010 | 6:21 pm
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That's why one has to be able to undertstand those rights: unreasonable search and seizure.
TSA simply affirms that that search is reasonable.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 12:34 pm
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Originally Posted by thesaints
That's why one has to be able to undertstand those rights: unreasonable search and seizure.
TSA simply affirms that that search is reasonable.
It's easy to consider a search for weapons as reasonable, but TSA also searches for narcotics, unlicensed media, valuables (like diamonds) and just about anything remotely illegal. It's obviously unreasonable to search without probable cause for items not relevant to the safety of a flight. The fourth amendment allows for specific searches, not general searches. And TSA is doing a general search.

TSA will take actions if medication is not in it's original, labeled container. I.e. if you take a few prescription meds or even aspirin out of a bulky bottle and put it in a ziplock to travel with, TSA has discretion to presume guilt, and treat you like a drug trafficer. (this is why you are offered a chance to buy OTC drugs in tiny sealed OEM containers at the airport at extortionate prices).
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 1:14 pm
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Mr. Rayde Gives His Age as 16

Oliver, your age puts you in a slightly different catagory. Basically, you are entitled to greater protection than older people.

Should any authority figure become adverserial with you, you have a right to remain silent until your parents are available to advocate for you. I suggest you avail yourself of this right. All Americans have the right to remain silent, but few have the wisdom to.

If you encounter some difficulty in your travels, you have a greater claim to assistance than an adult would. If you're delayed and have no adequate shelter, security or food, by all means notify the airline. If they don't help, turn to the police.

As for your other rights, well those are "unalienable". Simply put, they exist whether you are permitted the free exercise of them or not. On the other hand, sometimes insisting on your rights is not in your best interests. It would be wise for you and your parents to discuss how you should respond to incursions on your rights.

Should you submit to a patdown? Should you submit to a scan? If so, which type? What should you do if your belongings are stolen, broken or confiscated by the TSA? What if you're delayed by the TSA. An appropriate set of contingency plans should be mapped out by you and your parents ahead of time. If you were my son I would ask you to decline any "private" patdowns or interviews, but that's just me.

It is wise to remember that families are teams. When a young person finds himself in conflict with authorities, s/he should insist that his/her parents be notified, and decline to answer questions until the parent is involved. It actually takes great presence of mind and maturity to resist pressure from authorities to "cooperate", so don't imagine it's "childish". It takes nerves of steel. It is also your very best shot at a conflict resolution that honers your rights, so hang tough. Until your team is assembled, don't take the field.

It would also be wise for you and your parents to discuss ways that you could avoid potential conflict with authority figures. You can travel with as few possessions as possible, and be well informed of the rules. Little things like not carrying the latest item the TSA is "cracking down" on and buying your beverages after you get through the checkpoint can save a lot of hassles. You may choose to send your electronics and valuables by UPS to your destination. Conflict avoidance is a legitimate self-defense strategy. The best "self-defense experts" don't win fights, they win by not fighting.

I hope you have a safe and uneventful trip.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 1:50 pm
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Originally Posted by VideoPaul
No, the bill of rights protects you from warrantless search and seizure. You have no such rights when you travel. That moronic TSO three years ago in MKE was actually 100% correct.
The Bill of Rights consists of more than just the 4th Amendment.

The TSO was wrong (no surprise there), all rights apply in airports except as specifically superceded by regulation or deemed inapplicable by a court. In practice, however, the TSA continues to ignore the protections granted by the Bill of Rights. There's a difference between non-existence and non-compliance.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 1:57 pm
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Originally Posted by thesaints
That's why one has to be able to undertstand those rights: unreasonable search and seizure.
TSA simply affirms that that search is reasonable.
Done and dusted... In a nutshell

And until there is a case that makes it to the supreme court? What TSA says is permissible/reasonable *is* the law of the land.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 4:01 pm
  #12  
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Originally Posted by ElizabethConley
Oliver, your age puts you in a slightly different catagory. Basically, you are entitled to greater protection than older people.

Should any authority figure become adverserial with you, you have a right to remain silent until your parents are available to advocate for you. I suggest you avail yourself of this right. All Americans have the right to remain silent, but few have the wisdom to.

If you encounter some difficulty in your travels, you have a greater claim to assistance than an adult would. If you're delayed and have no adequate shelter, security or food, by all means notify the airline. If they don't help, turn to the police.

As for your other rights, well those are "unalienable". Simply put, they exist whether you are permitted the free exercise of them or not. On the other hand, sometimes insisting on your rights is not in your best interests. It would be wise for you and your parents to discuss how you should respond to incursions on your rights.

Should you submit to a patdown? Should you submit to a scan? If so, which type? What should you do if your belongings are stolen, broken or confiscated by the TSA? What if you're delayed by the TSA. An appropriate set of contingency plans should be mapped out by you and your parents ahead of time. If you were my son I would ask you to decline any "private" patdowns or interviews, but that's just me.

It is wise to remember that families are teams. When a young person finds himself in conflict with authorities, s/he should insist that his/her parents be notified, and decline to answer questions until the parent is involved. It actually takes great presence of mind and maturity to resist pressure from authorities to "cooperate", so don't imagine it's "childish". It takes nerves of steel. It is also your very best shot at a conflict resolution that honers your rights, so hang tough. Until your team is assembled, don't take the field.

It would also be wise for you and your parents to discuss ways that you could avoid potential conflict with authority figures. You can travel with as few possessions as possible, and be well informed of the rules. Little things like not carrying the latest item the TSA is "cracking down" on and buying your beverages after you get through the checkpoint can save a lot of hassles. You may choose to send your electronics and valuables by UPS to your destination. Conflict avoidance is a legitimate self-defense strategy. The best "self-defense experts" don't win fights, they win by not fighting.

I hope you have a safe and uneventful trip.
This is a very helpful, thorough, and respectful post. Oliver is getting top-notch advice here.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 4:10 pm
  #13  
 
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Originally Posted by VideoPaul
No, the bill of rights protects you from warrantless search and seizure. You have no such rights when you travel.
The bill of rights protects you from "unreasonable" searches and seizures.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 5:47 pm
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Originally Posted by OliverRayde
Hi, after the whole mess that these body scanners, pat downs, and TSA officer violations, I would like to know if there is a source that may be able to tell me ALL of my rights as a flyer.
The simple answer is "no, there is no such source". The reason is because the cases that would establish what rights exist are still working their way through the legal system. Until they're ligitated to completion (and they may well end up in the Supreme Court), anything anybody may say is nothing more than a guess.
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Old Jan 15, 2011 | 5:51 pm
  #15  
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Originally Posted by OliverRayde
I would like to know if there is a source that may be able to tell me ALL of my rights as a flyer.
Not really.

If you ask any employee of the TSA, they'll tell you that your wish to fly constitutes probable cause to execute a warrantless general search of your baggage and your person (including fondling your genitals) in the hope that they'll find something technically illegal and yet not a threat to the flight so they can call an LEO to have you arrested.

The courts have yet to rule on anything of substance under the new scope-and-grope policies, though.
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