Originally Posted by able

Crew rest periods begin fifteen minutes after blocking in and end at report time.

Time spent in transit between the airports and hotels is considered part of the rest period.

A crewmember (deadheading or operating) who is in the security line may actually be "resting" while getting screened.

Therefore, reporting earlier is often not an option.

Originally Posted by PaulMSN

Crew going through ahead of others is simply their perk -- worldwide -- just as elite passengers going ahead of others because of their status is a perk. Since it's not going to change, OP should just become a pilot and his worries are over.

As for late passengers, there is sufficient reason for airlines to want them jumped ahead, and one cannot assume that their lateness is really their own fault. What if passengers arrive late to a different terminal and there is no way (or reasonably timely way) to stay airside between the terminals? What if a semi overturns on the highway and they are delayed two hours?

Being resentful without knowing the situation is not reasonable.


OP, MikeMpls' comment was not snarky, but rather good advice. You are being oversensitive.

My comment above is a little snarky, but so what? There is no problem here and no changes need to be made.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

All irrelevant. Whether you are having a cup of coffee, eating, sleeping, shopping or whatever (waiting in line) in your rest period is not the issue. Waiting in a line is just another everyday human activity, many of which must be performed (even during 'rest' time)

Originally Posted by able

I will slow it down for you a bit as you don't seem to get it.

If a crew is on a minimum rest overnight and have, say a 10:00am, report time they can't get there any earlier than 10:00 because doing so would violate their minimum rest requirements and make them illegal to operate. Arriving later would cause the flight to depart late.

Therefor it is necessary that they arrive exactly at and not before report time. The only way to do this is to cut the security lines.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

Many of the so called minimum rest periods are not, I will wager, regulatory minimums but actually industrial and contracted agreements between the carrier and employees i.e terms and conditions of employment 'minimum' time between sectors.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

Utter Garbage.......this is primarily a scheduling issue. It is not the case that every 'report' for deadheaders consequently requires a mad dash via security to reach the gate to catch the flight. If it does, something is very wrong and needs addressing. You report, whenever you report. If it is not possible following that event, to then reach the gate and catch a flight with an adequate margin then the next one up is the answer with all the scheduling issues that entails. Clearly the two individuals cited by the OP were in no such rush. Many of the so called minimum rest periods are not, I will wager, regulatory minimums but actually industrial and contracted agreements between the carrier and employees i.e terms and conditions of employment 'minimum' time between sectors. There is a huge difference.

Originally Posted by N965VJ

Originally Posted by able

"Minimum rest" is just that. It is regulatory in nature not contractual. Because of the financial turmoil and Chapter 11 restructuring that has taken place most of the major carriers can schedule against the FAA maximums.

No change then! Actually many airlines crews enjoy rest periods between sectors in excess of the regulatory minimum but the crew refer to the contractual minimum as just that... 'minimum rest time'. There are plenty of examples of crew refusing to take an aircraft on (e.g. after a weather div) despite being legal by virtue of min legal rest but outside contractual agreements (and some outrageous ones at that!) and insisting on contractual agreed local rest time and consequently inconveniencing passeners needlessly

For some reason the FAA does not penalize the company when a rest violation occurs, they take certificate action against the pilot in question.

Because The Commander of the aircraft is deemed responsible if the violation occurs in this case

It is non unusual at all to be up against minimum rest requirements and often a ten or fifteen minute delay will be required to run out the clock on a rest period to ensure a legal departure.

Presumably after cutting the line to get there. Remember this thread is about 'Deadheaders cutting a line' not about the requirement for the op crew to depart legally

You are incorrect but even if you were correct it would be short sighted and stupid for an aircrew member to shortchange rest simply so they could avoid cutting in front of you in line. Should the rest regulations change (as they are due to shortly) this will likely not change.

Oh dear, I'm wrong but even if I was right I would be wrong! Again this all boils down to scheduling and the choices made by the carrier. Deadhead crew 'short changing rest' by waiting in line? You should already be out of your rest period if you have reported and into pure 'duty time' as a 'deadheadher'. Is this really puported as an actual throught process e.g. 'I really need to cut this line to meet rest minimums'.

Logic be damned you say! Crew should not cut in line but no departures should be delayed either. According to you it's up to airline management to sprinkle fairy dust and ensure their crews will be on time while still waiting in lines of varying duration.

Again, we are talking abot DEADHEADERS. I (and the OP it seems) have no probs with operating crew having some privileges to actually guarantee the departure slot is made. Please do not attempt to cloud the issue by merging the deadheaders situation with that of op crew. No dep should be delayed because of deadheaders failing to make the gate before close out

They are being transported as passengers to operate a flight at the next station. They are still mid trip and subject to the same rest requirements as the rest of the crew. The one carve out to transportation time used as rest time is "transportation not local in nature." Therefore deadhead time is counted as duty time and consequently can not be used as rest time.

They are being transported as pax full stop. What their rest requirements immediately before this flight have been and after it (since they have now arrived) are not relevant. Of course you are on duty time on board and it does not count towards rest but this appears irrelevant

They are entitled and in fact are required to use the employee lines to arrive at the gate. Because flights at downstream stations are dependent on these deadheading crews the airline has no choice but to delay an outbound flight for deadheading crewmembers who are not at the gate on time.

Will have to beg to differ. I think it is taken unasked by many deadhead crew rather than granted as an entitlement, especially where the employee line is in fact a pax line with employee (airport staff / op crew) priority. Base crews may get this privilege via a staff entry facility but non-based deadheaders.....no entitlement per se

You don't and there does indeed appear to be a need to slow it down for you.

Slow it down to a compete stop, please! Can you point to one piece of regulation that grants deadheading crew entitlement by right to 'cut a line' in front of their fellow PAX also holding a boarding pass. If not, then you can assume there is a very good reason...no entitlement!

You appear to be the arrogant one here.

By deigning to debate with you?

Deadhead time counts against duty time but not flight time.

Yes, we sort of knew that but why did the answer have to be dragged out? Even ground employees can be on duty time. Do not mix up duty time with flight time. Not the same (at all)

For instance, on a transcontinental trip it may be necessary to deadhead a crew in both directions to operate the flight if a crew is not available on the opposite coast. JFK-LAX-JFK can be flown in under sixteen duty hours but not under eight flight hours.

And how does all this irrelevancy support the argument to cutting the line. And yet another scheduling / resourcing issue not a regulatory one.

This occurs more often than one would think due to gauge substitutions and other out of position crew issues.

Originally Posted by able

Crew rest periods begin fifteen minutes after blocking in and end at report time.

Time spent in transit between the airports and hotels is considered part of the rest period.

A crewmember (deadheading or operating) who is in the security line may actually be "resting" while getting screened.

Therefore, reporting earlier is often not an option.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

If you want to rely on pieces of legislation and regulations then you have to take the rough with the smooth therein.

Originally Posted by jimrpa

I think it is stupid at any flight crew (FAs or pilots) have to go through any screening. As long as they can provide positive ID that they are a crew member, don't waste their or my time at a stupid security checkpoint. After all, they can cause all sorts of disruptions no matter what the stupid TSA does.

Originally Posted by N965VJ

Nothing in that FAR applies to me directly, so you assume wrong.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

Local transport to the airport will not be counting towards your rest period either, I presume, so you are already on duty time.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

I do beg your pardon. I had assumed (one does have to occasionally) that since you quoted this item that it was in defence of the argument that deadheaders should be able to cut the line. I had not unreasonably in my view assumed that anyone attempting to further this argument was most likely a crew member themselves (or perhaps have been at one time or closley associated to). If you are not in that category, then I apologise but I would wonder why you appear to support the argument.

Originally Posted by TWA884

You presume incorrectly. Rest periods start fifteen minutes after a flight blocks in and end at reporting time for the next flight (at operations or the gate, depending on the airport). Transportation to and from the hotel and clearing security take place during the rest period.



Again, unreasonable assumption and presumption. Many of us, who are not flight crews, do not have any problem with flight crews not having to stand in line to clear security, regardless of whether they are on duty or not.

TSA personnel has no means of determining if crews are clearing security in order to work a flight, deadhead, go to the office - which is often past security - or commute. I doubt that many non airline employees are able to decipher the flight assignment codes in printouts of monthly schedules or flight sequences; plus, each airline has its own scheduling system and uses different codes.

It is simpler and easier to make sure that airline crews members are in uniforms and present valid ID's when they are permitted to get to the head of the line.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

Incidentally it is quite easy to identify 'Deadheaders'. They are the ones with the.....boarding cards! And if they are carefully concealing them them then care to guess as to why? I am under the impression that most report centres are landside for good logistical reasons but it may be different where you are.

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

Originally Posted by TWA884

P.S. It turns out that the legislation implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 commission included provisions to expedite airport security screening for flight crew members.

Aircrew Buzz - Legislation will expedite crew access at U.S. airports

TSA has an initiative to expedited access through screening for airline flight deck and cabin crew members.

TSA - Commercial Airlines Transportation Sector Network Management

Originally Posted by able

Rest time ends and crew duty time begins when the crew arrives at the gate (outstation) or operations (base). Both of these locations are inside security. During security screening the crew is still in their rest period. (How many freaking times does this need to be explained to you?)

How polite you are sir / madam. Please moderate your tone. This is a debate not a shouting match. Who was it that stated earlier that rest time ends at report. Not at the Gate. Many airlines have their report stations Landside, some are not even in the Terminal or in some cases, off the airport. You ignore the possibility of the existence of other business models. I gave a good reason for a Landside location, there are many others in addition
Crew briefings etc. occur well after the crew clears security. This report time is usually between 40 and 60 minutes prior to push time.

Your suppositions regarding "minimum rest" are incorrect. The term applies to the FAA minimums, not contractual minimums. It is not uncommon to bump up against these minimums and as a result necessitate departure delays.

I am not disputing the term 'minimum rest' is quoted in regulatory terms, however where the contractual terms exceed this crew quote e.g. min base time rest, min local rest etc etc. If you were to believe that crews have never refused to continue a flight after a div despite being legal after exceeding minimum legal rest but not reaching contractual rest time and citing it as reason not to operate....you would be wrong!

As has been pointed out to you multiple times, transportation from the hotel and the time spent in the security line is clocked as part of the rest period. The duty clock starts when the crew arrives at the gate to operate the flight. Therefore, any extra time spent in security lines will come out of the rest time - typically nine hours. (It can be reduced but then a longer compensatory rest period is required within the next 24 hour cycle, which may cause further delays.)

I understand that crew transport from the hotel being local in nature is part of the rest but I was curious about if this was always the case and so I asked a question, silly me! I would have been grateful for a specific answer without the hissy fit.
This rest time can be legally reduced to eight hours. Factoring in transit time to the landside, transportation to and from the hotel, check in time, thirty minutes for a shower and time spent in security screening this typically allows for less than six hours of actual "rest."

I believe 'Deadheaders' will not be in this position though.
Pilot groups who have been able to improve upon this, scientifically proven inadequate rest, have done so to allow eight hours of actual sleep - not time on the beach. Therefore few of them are willing to waive their rest period and operate on six, five or four hours of sleep.

Deadhead crews are no different from operating crews. They are often mid trip and therefore subject to the same rest requirements as the operating crew.

But they are. They are not listed on the Gendec as part of the crew complement, they are not peforming an aviation function, nor are they critical to the departure of the flight they are boarding. They check in and are given boarding cards like the rest of the pax (or should be). The imperative that drives the necessity for them to board is primarily a commercial one not an operational one, in fact a deadhead crews own carrier is probably willing to offload a revenue pax, I believe, to accommodate the deadheadcrew and deal with the fall out later.
Try and wrap your head around the fact that the aformentioned JFK-LAX-JFK example could very well be in the middle of a multiple day assignment. The deadheading crew flew the day before and has the same rest requirement as the crew assigned to fly. If they arrive earlier - to stand in line - then they are will have to sacrifice rest time or arrive late and delay the departure.

If you can shower and rest, wait for breakfast in the hotel and rest (and visit airport shops and rest) then you can wait and rest
Technically there is supposed to be a dedicated crew line but most airports instead allow passengers to utilize the crew line. Because of this crew members are instructed to cut to the head of the line - passengers technically should not even be there.

If there was 'supposed' to be in any legal sense then there would be. There is not, in most cases. Op crew tend to use dedicated staff entries where they exist and staff priority lines where they are an alternate. This normally refers to airport staff and op crew. Deadheaders cannot use the dedicated staff entry and I think this is indicative in that they are sent instead to the pax lines. If they have a based ID then they can probably use the staff priority line if there is one.
You bloviate quite a bit about what you "know" but you are clearly uninformed and simply making things up to fill the gap.

Originally Posted by TWA884

More of the operation centers with which I am familiar are on the secure airside than the landside. Deadheading crews do get boarding cards, but many of them do not receive them until they arrive at the gate.

I think the location of the report centre is simply a difference to where you are and where I am familiar with. I mentioned the boarding cards as evidencing that the deadheaders are in fact pax, not crew for that leg and therefore their status is different to the op crew
Airline crew members in uniform with valid ID's can clear security without being in possession of a boarding card. That is standard operating procedures.

Possibly so, but a red herring. Everyone travelling as a pax has to 'clear security'. This issue is 'cutting the line' not being able to pass ticket presentation without a boarding pass.

Being familiar with airline terminology does not make me any more biased than you are on the other side of the issue.

I admit some bias as a member of the travelling public, but which I feel is warranted and so have chosen to support the OP argument I just cannot fathom any bias on the part of someone who is apparently non flight crew but has chosen to counter anyway
I know that to be standard practice. I am sure that it is addressed in the TSA regulations. Perhaps you should ask that of one of the TSA officers that frequents these boards.

Standard practice....means nothing unless backed-up with some form of regulation. Sounds like individuals evolving a practice and it not being policed. Perhaps you should ask too, if you are not 'sure'..

I know it is not the answer you are looking for, but all that is required for a crew member to go the the head of the line is to be in uniform and in possession of a valid ID.

Oh really! A crew member has a base. They should really live within say a certain time or mileage of it e.g. 60 road miles or 1.5hrs travelling time. If they choose to live a considerable distance away from that base for whatever reason and elect to attempt to use discounted staff travel concessions, then thats their choice but it has inherent risk. They have to make sure they get to work on time at their base and if they are late then....tough. If they think they can do this, 'cutting security lines' all over the place while travelling on staff tickets, just because they are in uniform and wearing ID i.e. dressed for work that they have not yet started, then that would be ridiculous. They are in the same boat as everyone else here. As for deadheaders, they are not crewing, they are paxing and possibly not even on their own carrier. I am fine with op crew doing it but not deadheaders and...commuters!!!!
Again, rest period starts fifteen minutes after blocking in and ends upon reporting at the airport either to operations or at the gate depending on the airport and the nature of the trip. Here are the relevant FAR's:
Flight attendant duty period limitations and rest requirements

Originally Posted by TWA884

P.S. It turns out that the legislation implementing the recommendations of the 9/11 commission included provisions to expedite airport security screening for flight crew members.

Aircrew Buzz - Legislation will expedite crew access at U.S. airports

TSA has an initiative to expedited access through screening for airline flight deck and cabin crew members.

TSA - Commercial Airlines Transportation Sector Network Management

Originally Posted by Custardthecat

Er, no but I will confess I have no clue about what bloviate means.

Originally Posted by N965VJ