Jan 9, 2020, 3:09 pm
Last edit by: NewbieRunner
WELCOME, MODERATOR GUIDELINES and SUMMARY
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that covers the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc.)
All travelers are welcome in the community. Just choose a forum: conversing about airlines and their programs, airports, destinations, dining and how to make the most of your miles and points, or visit our Information Desk to start.
We do have some Rules, and everyone agrees to abide by these when they are granted free membership privileges. On a topic that generates a lot of feelings and perspectives, please remember "welcoming, respectful" are key words on FlyerTalk.
Please observe the following in this thread:
1. The normal FT Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions on-thread). And please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect our diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, orientation, etc." Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. Please do continue to be attentive to the sensibilities of the families of those on the flight. Think about if you were them what you would and would not want to see posted. Speculation about what happened is permissible; please, though, do not indulge in inflammatory or overly-lurid descriptions or depictions (or links to same) that could well be hurtful.
4. Overly / extravagantly exaggerative posts such as conspiracy theories, posts beyond the realm of science and known facts, etc. as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted. Moderator actions may not be discussed in posts on FlyerTalk.
5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules or the guidelines for this thread, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and have membership privileges suspended, forum masks, etc.
On behalf of the FlyerTalk Moderator Team
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note.
OTHER FORA OF INTEREST:
This thread is about the loss of PS752. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:
OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)
If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni...r-takeoff.html thread is the place.
Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).
Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).
TravelBuzz: TravelBuzz for those wishing to discuss the relative safety of a specific aircraft - e.g. Boeing 737.
Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
We have a number of Destination fora to discuss various aspects of destination travel (including airports, airport connections, etc.) and Airline, Hotel, etc. fora. You can see them displayed in the Forum Home, here.
This thread is about the loss of PS752. In depth discussion of unrelated topics — geopolitics, passport theft, aviation security, airport security procedures, etc. — belongs in other fora. A few include:
OMNI/PR: Discussion of perspectives on politics and religion, including geopolitics and terrorism (requires 180 days on FT and 180 constructive posts prior to admission)
If you wish to discuss the politics and political implications related to this issue (or others), please do so in OMNI/PR; the https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni...r-takeoff.html thread is the place.
Travel Safety/Security: Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (including routing passenger aircraft over conflict areas).
Travel Safety/Security: Practical Travel Safety Issues for those discussing travel safety and security issues because they are planning a trip soon (including passport and nationality issues).
TravelBuzz: TravelBuzz for those wishing to discuss the relative safety of a specific aircraft - e.g. Boeing 737.
Further posts regarding any of these issues are liable to summary deletion.
We have a number of Destination fora to discuss various aspects of destination travel (including airports, airport connections, etc.) and Airline, Hotel, etc. fora. You can see them displayed in the Forum Home, here.
Thank you.
Ukraine Int’l 737-800 (PS752 IKA-KBP) crashes on takeoff from Tehran, 8 January 2020
Jan 10, 2020, 10:10 pm
#121
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,212
I appreciate the honesty of the Iranian government. It is a tough spot to backtrack in, but the victims deserve the truth.
Jan 11, 2020, 1:03 am
#122
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,339
So you think they decided to "come clean" for honorable reasons?...and NOT just because the evidence was going to show them to be liars? Very generous of you.... It was only earlier TODAY that I read a report quoting Iran as claiming that the cooperation between their military and their ATC made a shootdown like this "impossible".
Jan 11, 2020, 1:26 am
#123
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Tokyo
Programs: JAL Metal Card (OWE), SAS Eurobonus Gold (*G), Marriott Titanium (LTP), Tokyu Hotels Platinum
Posts: 21,212
So you think they decided to "come clean" for honorable reasons?...and NOT just because the evidence was going to show them to be liars? Very generous of you.... It was only earlier TODAY that I read a report quoting Iran as claiming that the cooperation between their military and their ATC made a shootdown like this "impossible".
I do think they should have owned up much sooner, and I was fairly convinced we would never hear this from them. All the posturing, about big fat lies and what have you not did not really put a positive light on it. But, it is closure, closure that should have come earlier.
Jan 11, 2020, 4:03 am
#124
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: AA EXP/LTP, BA GGL/CCR/GfL, HH D/LTD, SPG/MR Plat/LTP
Posts: 10,076
So you think they decided to "come clean" for honorable reasons?...and NOT just because the evidence was going to show them to be liars? Very generous of you.... It was only earlier TODAY that I read a report quoting Iran as claiming that the cooperation between their military and their ATC made a shootdown like this "impossible".
"What is obvious for us, and what we can say with certainty, is that no missile hit the plane," Abedzadeh told reporters in Tehran [Ref. aljazeera.com]
It seems that the long-gone Bagdad Bob finally has gotten a successor.
Jan 11, 2020, 4:27 am
#125
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
So the government allows in those most affected by the situation personally, including most of therelevant government authorities, to get involved in the matter and corrects the idea it had initially believed or wanted to believe and yet they are still condemned over the situation. As the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished. This thread is a case in point.
Jan 11, 2020, 6:13 am
#126
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,432
Yeah, I was wondering how they were going to allow foreign specialists and still lie about the cause of the crash. It is obviously a good thing that they have come clean. What it means for the future, no one really knows at this point.
Jan 11, 2020, 7:56 am
#127
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 17,432
So this is more than a little rich: the Ukrainian airline VP today blamed the Iranians for keeping the airport open. He has a point: the Iranians should definitely have shut down commercial aviation in their country that morning. But that doesn't mean that UIA had to operate the flight! As I said days ago, the airline is contributorily negligent for operating that flight that morning. Based on what any halfway intelligent observer could have deduced based on the facts at the time, it was a totally irresponsible call. Hopefully, other airlines learn from this tragic lesson.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________
UIA vice president Igor Sosnovsky told a news conference in Kiev on Saturday that Tehran should have closed the airport due to the escalation of regional tensions following the US assassination of a top Iranian general.
"It's absolutely irresponsible," Sosnovsky said, accusing Iran of failing to protect ordinary citizens while "playing at war."
"They were obliged to close the airport. Obliged! Then shoot as much as you like."
https://www.afp.com/en/news/1272/ukr...g-doc-1nm3ef10
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________
UIA vice president Igor Sosnovsky told a news conference in Kiev on Saturday that Tehran should have closed the airport due to the escalation of regional tensions following the US assassination of a top Iranian general.
"It's absolutely irresponsible," Sosnovsky said, accusing Iran of failing to protect ordinary citizens while "playing at war."
"They were obliged to close the airport. Obliged! Then shoot as much as you like."
https://www.afp.com/en/news/1272/ukr...g-doc-1nm3ef10
Jan 11, 2020, 7:57 am
#128
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 16,871
So you think they decided to "come clean" for honorable reasons?...and NOT just because the evidence was going to show them to be liars? Very generous of you.... It was only earlier TODAY that I read a report quoting Iran as claiming that the cooperation between their military and their ATC made a shootdown like this "impossible".
Jan 11, 2020, 9:04 am
#129
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Park, CO
Programs: Tegridy Elite
Posts: 5,678
FR24 blog has plots of the flight as well as others in the hours before its departure. There doesn't seem to be anything unusual about the Ukraine flight's departure path, altitude, etc. by comparison.
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/u...f-from-tehran/
https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/u...f-from-tehran/
Jan 11, 2020, 12:07 pm
#130
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, TK Elite, HHonors Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 7,691
I am sorry but I just can't stop crying.
It's devastating. My whole county was shaken by this. I flew with some of the cabin crew, and I find it hard to accept that they are gone. I don't care that Iran accepted the responsibility. I just wish it never happened.
It's devastating. My whole county was shaken by this. I flew with some of the cabin crew, and I find it hard to accept that they are gone. I don't care that Iran accepted the responsibility. I just wish it never happened.
Jan 11, 2020, 3:56 pm
#131
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Statements from the relevant section’s military commander and from the Iranian President:
https://us.yahoo.com/news/iranian-co...112006118.html
There is a lot of regret and sadness all around about this awful tragedy.
https://us.yahoo.com/news/iranian-co...112006118.html
There is a lot of regret and sadness all around about this awful tragedy.
Jan 11, 2020, 5:38 pm
#132
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
The inevitable rush to judgement is quite depressing to see, how short people’s memories are
I saw this posted in the parallel thread on PPRUNE and IMO it sums up the situation beautifully
”let he who is without sin cast the first stone”
I saw this posted in the parallel thread on PPRUNE and IMO it sums up the situation beautifully
Originally Posted by fdr
...it should be within the risk analysis of a military to comprehend what is the extent of mayhem that is unleashed with the commencement of action. That goes for all sides.
A B738 departing from a nearby airport, climbing out at a sedate speed and altitude by no means looks like a air strike, yet, the wreckage stands in mute testament to the failure of the human side of critical decisions made under uncertainty and under stress. It is not unique, it is not dependent on creed, race, religion, it happens because we have humans in the system, and as often as humans are remarkable in their adept handling of complex issues, we collectively fail, and bad stuff happens. The 3C is always frail and limited by the time available to intervene before an irreversible action is taken. The only two ways to avoid these issues is to remove civil traffic from regions of warfare at any level, (not going to happen, that covers more fo the world than not) or to stop wars, which was discounted by Plato, "only the dead have seen the end of war".
This time, it was Irans fearsome error, last time, it was Russia's, the time before, well that was Ukrainian. Going back, past the the USS Vincennes, there was the DC9 off the left coast of Italy, civil planes have been attacked all over the world, Cathay Pacific, KAL (twice) and almost countless others. On too many occasions, the civil aircraft is deliberately targets, as furtherance of some agenda. Many of these aircraft have had sophisticated SSR identifying their status, yet it continues to be disregarded, which remains the fundamental problem, the non combatant status gets lost in the noise.
Unless we quarantine the airspace around hot spots, these events will continue to happen all too often, breaking hearts all round.
- That there would be retaliation of some form following the targeted assassination of a foreign government person is foreseeable.
- That the retaliation response would incur a response was a stated and expected outcome, That resulted in the twitter storm on the matter from one side, discussing action including attacks on cultural sites.
- That the missile crew are under stress, and probably fatigued will be highlighted in the investigation.
- The missile crews themselves are probable targets for SEAD suppression attacks had the retaliatory response occurred in that area, they had a reason to be concerned.
- The spin up time on the missile system is around 8 seconds, not much time to correct a failure in SA arising from any anomalous observation, or any observation that is erroneously assessed as anomalous. In this status, a simple hiccup of a power supply to the ADSB OUT signal would be enough to start off a disastrous response.
A B738 departing from a nearby airport, climbing out at a sedate speed and altitude by no means looks like a air strike, yet, the wreckage stands in mute testament to the failure of the human side of critical decisions made under uncertainty and under stress. It is not unique, it is not dependent on creed, race, religion, it happens because we have humans in the system, and as often as humans are remarkable in their adept handling of complex issues, we collectively fail, and bad stuff happens. The 3C is always frail and limited by the time available to intervene before an irreversible action is taken. The only two ways to avoid these issues is to remove civil traffic from regions of warfare at any level, (not going to happen, that covers more fo the world than not) or to stop wars, which was discounted by Plato, "only the dead have seen the end of war".
This time, it was Irans fearsome error, last time, it was Russia's, the time before, well that was Ukrainian. Going back, past the the USS Vincennes, there was the DC9 off the left coast of Italy, civil planes have been attacked all over the world, Cathay Pacific, KAL (twice) and almost countless others. On too many occasions, the civil aircraft is deliberately targets, as furtherance of some agenda. Many of these aircraft have had sophisticated SSR identifying their status, yet it continues to be disregarded, which remains the fundamental problem, the non combatant status gets lost in the noise.
Unless we quarantine the airspace around hot spots, these events will continue to happen all too often, breaking hearts all round.
Jan 11, 2020, 6:28 pm
#133
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Some in the Iranian government told some in Europe late on Wednesday or Thursday that they were sure an Iranian missile or two had hit the plane. What they didn’t know for sure at the time or before was whether the plane was on fire before or after the first missile was fired and if they thought the plane was a foreign missile or drone coming in against them. Welcome to the “fog of war” when there isn’t even a declared war. Shooting in a fog comes with heightened risk, including that of even “friendly fire”. Sadly. this UIA flight tragedy is an example of the danger that comes from ramped up conflict and paranoia by and from those with the proverbial “big guns” and an ability and willingness to use them.
It will be interesting to see if governments learn a lesson from this incident too or if they just continue to carry on with business as usual .... even as it comes with continuing risk of making passengers into “collateral damage”. Given this kind of stuff has been going on for decades, I suspect that this won’t be the last time many of us see a passenger jet fired upon by military forces ... or even the last time we see a case of shooting upon one’s own plane by one’s own military forces.
It will be interesting to see if governments learn a lesson from this incident too or if they just continue to carry on with business as usual .... even as it comes with continuing risk of making passengers into “collateral damage”. Given this kind of stuff has been going on for decades, I suspect that this won’t be the last time many of us see a passenger jet fired upon by military forces ... or even the last time we see a case of shooting upon one’s own plane by one’s own military forces.
Jan 11, 2020, 8:22 pm
#134
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NYC
Programs: AA GLD, AC
Posts: 4,223
I'm so, so, so sorry for your loss. I hope with time there will be some sense of closure, Please accept my condolences for you, your friends, and Ukraine.