Condor / Thomas Cook - Schengen Denied Entry in FRA
#31
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London & Sonoma CA
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Posts: 10,224
I wonder if the issue of not flagging the passport arose because Americans use dates the wrong way around. So, for example, most of the World, including Schengen and, presumably, Condor would read 10/9/19 as 10 September 2019, whereas an American would read it as October 9 2019, It would be very easy for the passport expiry date to be transposed so that, when typed in, it appears valid when it's not.
#32
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seoul
Programs: LH&BA
Posts: 126
Learning by doing - the young lady will from now on take care of it.
Similar things happened to each of us in the past as well just because we didn’t know or we didn’t prepare well.
Sorry for the loss - unfortunately the price of being lazy can be high sometimes.
Similar things happened to each of us in the past as well just because we didn’t know or we didn’t prepare well.
Sorry for the loss - unfortunately the price of being lazy can be high sometimes.
#33
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 74
I wonder if the issue of not flagging the passport arose because Americans use dates the wrong way around. So, for example, most of the World, including Schengen and, presumably, Condor would read 10/9/19 as 10 September 2019, whereas an American would read it as October 9 2019, It would be very easy for the passport expiry date to be transposed so that, when typed in, it appears valid when it's not.
9/10/19, 9/11/19, and 9/12/19 are juts asking for confusion between The World and the US
#34
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Eurozone
Programs: LH SEN, HH Gold
Posts: 3,002
I don't disagree with you, hence my last sentence. The problem is that, what you are suggesting is extremely complex. In order to have even a basic hope of being functional, the reservation system would have to take account of dozens of data points, including nationality, residency, residency permits held, country travelling from, through, to, validity dates, visas, visa requirements, duration of stay, as well as a whole slew of minor things. A nightmare where it's easier just to leave it to the passenger to figure out.
#35
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Exile
Posts: 15,656
I wonder if the issue of not flagging the passport arose because Americans use dates the wrong way around. So, for example, most of the World, including Schengen and, presumably, Condor would read 10/9/19 as 10 September 2019, whereas an American would read it as October 9 2019, It would be very easy for the passport expiry date to be transposed so that, when typed in, it appears valid when it's not.
#37
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
It is "TIMATIC" and you may access it cost-free at any number of sites. Here is one:
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...aspx?i=TIMATIC
You may access TIMATIC at other locations, but make certain that you are not being redirected to a commercial visa service. Also, be careful to complete all of the fields correctly as minor differences may sometimes affect important details. Simply put, double-check your entries.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/app...aspx?i=TIMATIC
You may access TIMATIC at other locations, but make certain that you are not being redirected to a commercial visa service. Also, be careful to complete all of the fields correctly as minor differences may sometimes affect important details. Simply put, double-check your entries.
#38
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,160
“personalised passport, visa and health travel documentation advice”
#39
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Programs: AA exp 3mm Hertz 5*
Posts: 334
My fault, and I was prepared to taxi four hours to accommodate my booboo. As it seems to me that we neither have a constitutional right to leave the US, nor one to enter another country, it's up to me to get those ducks in an order. I fell flat that day.
#41
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 17
This is not the first time that the question of "whose responsibility is it to check docs" has cropped up and surely won't be the last. Sometimes the OP receives the correct reply from the majority of FT members that it is their responsibility, but often refuse to accept it! Fortunately that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Having previously been in the airline industry for many years and liaising with UK Border Force over refusals and deportees, I'd like to add my take on the subject....
1. The responsibility for having valid documentation for ALL countries being flown to or through is ALWAYS that of the passenger. Period. Sorry to all those who think otherwise.
2. Airlines have absolutely NO legal obligation to check that the documents are valid. The fact that they do check is PURELY to prevent any costs or fines being levied on said airline due to any immigration transgressions. It obviously could potentially save the passenger a lot of inconvenience and expense, but please understand that they are not doing it for their own protection and not for altruistic reasons! It's hardly surprising when you consider that some authorities, e.g. Saudi Arabia during the Hajj, fine airlines on a sliding scale based on the aggregate number of transgressions, with potential fines of up to $50,000 per passenger, even where a passenger travels a day later than the shown (in Arabic) date on the visa. The grounding of aircraft, or withdrawal of traffic rights is also a threat that can be used! Many an argument is held at check-in desks when passengers are told they can't travel and some even offer to sign some sort of indemnity/disclaimer in case of problems, but in the case of my airline, this was never really an option due to the potential difficulties of actually reclaiming costs.
3. If a passenger is refused entry into any country, the incoming airline is legally obliged to make arrangements for the offending passenger to leave that country as directed by the authority. This does NOT mean picking up the costs, even though the airline will be presented with a bill for any detention costs or fines. If a passenger does not hold a ticket for the journey as directed by the authority, they will have to provide one. However, if the passenger already has a ticket for that return or onward flight, they will use it and more than likely waive any rebooking fees. If they don't have a ticket, the airline will possibly chase the passenger for repayment of said ticket/detention costs/fines at a later date.
4. As previously posted, deportation is NOT the same as entry being refused. It is a common misuse of the word, but there is a very big difference between deportation and refusal. Deportation commonly occurs after a foreign national has legally been in a country for some time, has overstayed their permitted time, has broken other immigration laws (working illegally etc.) or has been released from having served a prison sentence. In all of these cases, depending on the country involved, either that country's authorities will pay for the ticket, or the airline that brought that passenger into the country will have to provide one.
Having previously been in the airline industry for many years and liaising with UK Border Force over refusals and deportees, I'd like to add my take on the subject....
1. The responsibility for having valid documentation for ALL countries being flown to or through is ALWAYS that of the passenger. Period. Sorry to all those who think otherwise.
2. Airlines have absolutely NO legal obligation to check that the documents are valid. The fact that they do check is PURELY to prevent any costs or fines being levied on said airline due to any immigration transgressions. It obviously could potentially save the passenger a lot of inconvenience and expense, but please understand that they are not doing it for their own protection and not for altruistic reasons! It's hardly surprising when you consider that some authorities, e.g. Saudi Arabia during the Hajj, fine airlines on a sliding scale based on the aggregate number of transgressions, with potential fines of up to $50,000 per passenger, even where a passenger travels a day later than the shown (in Arabic) date on the visa. The grounding of aircraft, or withdrawal of traffic rights is also a threat that can be used! Many an argument is held at check-in desks when passengers are told they can't travel and some even offer to sign some sort of indemnity/disclaimer in case of problems, but in the case of my airline, this was never really an option due to the potential difficulties of actually reclaiming costs.
3. If a passenger is refused entry into any country, the incoming airline is legally obliged to make arrangements for the offending passenger to leave that country as directed by the authority. This does NOT mean picking up the costs, even though the airline will be presented with a bill for any detention costs or fines. If a passenger does not hold a ticket for the journey as directed by the authority, they will have to provide one. However, if the passenger already has a ticket for that return or onward flight, they will use it and more than likely waive any rebooking fees. If they don't have a ticket, the airline will possibly chase the passenger for repayment of said ticket/detention costs/fines at a later date.
4. As previously posted, deportation is NOT the same as entry being refused. It is a common misuse of the word, but there is a very big difference between deportation and refusal. Deportation commonly occurs after a foreign national has legally been in a country for some time, has overstayed their permitted time, has broken other immigration laws (working illegally etc.) or has been released from having served a prison sentence. In all of these cases, depending on the country involved, either that country's authorities will pay for the ticket, or the airline that brought that passenger into the country will have to provide one.
#42
Join Date: Feb 2001
Programs: UA 1k, AA Plt, MR Lifetime Plat & Amb
Posts: 1,829
Santorini is in Greece. Greece is part of Schengen.
This makes little sense.
I assume they were connecting in Frankfurt to Santorini (possibly with Condor via Mykonos), they had to enter the Schengen area here in Frankfurt.
Whether they had a day layover or not - it does not matter. German immigration officers (Bundespolizei) wont let her in.
This is also weird. German customs officer (Zoll) has virtually no jurisdiction to send people back. Customs officers are there to check baggage, contraband etc.
This makes little sense.
I assume they were connecting in Frankfurt to Santorini (possibly with Condor via Mykonos), they had to enter the Schengen area here in Frankfurt.
Whether they had a day layover or not - it does not matter. German immigration officers (Bundespolizei) wont let her in.
This is also weird. German customs officer (Zoll) has virtually no jurisdiction to send people back. Customs officers are there to check baggage, contraband etc.
#43
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 5
SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME AND MY KIDS - Different outcome.
Flight SFO to FRA on United. Wife and two kids. At SFO we presented our passports to 3 or 4 different people in UA. Boarded plane, arrived in FRA. I might have the order wrong but it seems to me you pass we had to present our passports to two more officials (customs) before we reached boarder control and were allowed in enter Germany. At that time we told "There is a problem". We were told the kinder's passports would expire while we were in Germany. (We didn't know kid's passports were only good for 5 years.) We were allowed entry and told we would not have any problem traveling in Germany with expired passports. But we would have to go to the American consulate to obtain a temporary passport in order for my children to leave the country.
Flight SFO to FRA on United. Wife and two kids. At SFO we presented our passports to 3 or 4 different people in UA. Boarded plane, arrived in FRA. I might have the order wrong but it seems to me you pass we had to present our passports to two more officials (customs) before we reached boarder control and were allowed in enter Germany. At that time we told "There is a problem". We were told the kinder's passports would expire while we were in Germany. (We didn't know kid's passports were only good for 5 years.) We were allowed entry and told we would not have any problem traveling in Germany with expired passports. But we would have to go to the American consulate to obtain a temporary passport in order for my children to leave the country.
#44
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME AND MY KIDS - Different outcome.
Flight SFO to FRA on United. Wife and two kids. At SFO we presented our passports to 3 or 4 different people in UA. Boarded plane, arrived in FRA. I might have the order wrong but it seems to me you pass we had to present our passports to two more officials (customs) before we reached boarder control and were allowed in enter Germany. At that time we told "There is a problem". We were told the kinder's passports would expire while we were in Germany. (We didn't know kid's passports were only good for 5 years.) We were allowed entry and told we would not have any problem traveling in Germany with expired passports. But we would have to go to the American consulate to obtain a temporary passport in order for my children to leave the country.
Flight SFO to FRA on United. Wife and two kids. At SFO we presented our passports to 3 or 4 different people in UA. Boarded plane, arrived in FRA. I might have the order wrong but it seems to me you pass we had to present our passports to two more officials (customs) before we reached boarder control and were allowed in enter Germany. At that time we told "There is a problem". We were told the kinder's passports would expire while we were in Germany. (We didn't know kid's passports were only good for 5 years.) We were allowed entry and told we would not have any problem traveling in Germany with expired passports. But we would have to go to the American consulate to obtain a temporary passport in order for my children to leave the country.
UA screwed up by boarding the child and German immigration authorities chose not to enforce passport validity requirements as to the child. Had the UA staff checked all passports as they are supposed to do, you (or at least the child) would never have left SFO.
#45
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Federal Way, WA
Programs: Mileage Plus 2P, Marriott Silver, many others
Posts: 1,305
From a legal standpoint, I don't disagree with anything that's been said. It does seem to me, though, that if the trip was purchased through a travel agency then the agency has an ethical obligation to advise to passenger of the requirements. What we don't know is whether there was any effort made.
In the long run yes, the passenger is fully responsible -- just as when I prepare your tax return you are 100% responsible for any mistakes I might make. Most passengers, unfortunately, aren't as cognizant as the denizens of these forums and they rely on the advice of their travel "partners".
In the long run yes, the passenger is fully responsible -- just as when I prepare your tax return you are 100% responsible for any mistakes I might make. Most passengers, unfortunately, aren't as cognizant as the denizens of these forums and they rely on the advice of their travel "partners".