Can I ask a favor of those that have issues with the "newbies"? Could you dig back and post your first 5 posts on FT for us?

ScottC, I don't have a problem with newbies but I can tell you about my first post: It was completely off topic.

This was pointed out to me by several members of the Delta Forum -- but in a very friendly and helpful way. They also gave me a warm welcome to FT.

This is the right way to greet a newbie who makes a mistake, not to jump down his throat.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the real issue is whether or not to tell new FTers about searching to find answers. What causes the problems is HOW they are told that. If it is in a condescending or sarcasting reply, then the new poster will probably be put off and get definsive at best, or possibly never post again, or even worse, they may try to "flame" back at whom every replied to them.

I've told many new posters to search for answers, and so far as I know, I don't remember any one of them coming back and firing off "nasty" replies because of it. Yet others state that anytime they recommend a user to search for an answer they get lambasted by everyone. Why the difference? How the reply was worded perhaps?

Here is an excerpt I use when I teach new trainers on how to teach that may be of interest "Researches in communication suggest that many more feelings and intentions are sent and received nonverbally than verbally. Mehrabian and Wienerfollowing suggested that only 7% of message is sent through words, with remaining 93% sent nonverbal expressions (depending on author, verbal part goes up to 35%)." And in "Newsgroup" communications we have very little in the way of nonverbal communication (emoticons is one tool to help with that.) So our posts are very easily misunderstood even by those we know and communicate with on a regular basis, much less someone new.

So if we, the "veterans" can take a little extra time and craft our replies thinking about how a "newbie" might interpret the message, we can convey the same information we want (i.e. do a search, look here, etc.), and not have to worry about being attacked as much either by the new FTer or by someone else. Yes, that means we take a few extra moments to before we post. Is that really that onerous a few moments when the benefit is it might really help someone learn and grow in the FT community? Or as was also mentioned, if one really feels that it is demeaning and a waste of time to do that, then just don't post.

I also agree with others that the concept of a "newbies only" area would be great. It gives the newbies a "safe" area to ask questions and learn. And it does this without causing the "wade throu pages of junk" problem that has been mentioned by some (at least within the main focused forum). Though I would be interested in hearing some of the "one per FT versus one per forum" issues as I can see some pros and cons for each approach.

I also would be more than willing to helpout with that idea in anyway that I can.

It's not the veterans vs. noobs, "do a search" stuff I get annoyed with: it's the veterans vs. veterans, snapping at each other for petty grammar issues, minor points, sarcastic put-downs, etc. It has been fantastic to see moderators take a more proactive & bold stance & just start deleting some of these posts.

This issue about searching for information is currently being addressed with an extensive effort that has been undertaken over the past few months in the Hilton forum.

The preliminary results initially indicate success.

I think a better new member interface could help. These are just a few of my ideas, YMMV:

*If a new member wants to start a thread a screen could come up directing them to perform a search before the system allows the new thread to be created.

*There could be a waiting period before new members are allowed to start a thread.

*New threads, maybe the first 10 that new members start could require approval by the mods before they apprear. I know this would be adding an additional burden on the mods, but it could really cut down on some of the trolling.

IMO the difference between the "do a search" response that is sarcastic and the one that is not equals three words. "Welcome to FlyerTalk"

It's not regular posts that are at issue, it's thread starts. Posting in an existing thread in a "newbie fashion" (for lack of a better term) does not get the same treatment as starting a new thread in that same fashion. Apples and bowling balls, IMO. And the response to the behavior bears that out.

Cheers.

But I know that not all people handle being new in the same way. When I came, I did some homework, and many do. Being new, IMO, is no excuse for not learning the mores and etiquette of a new community before participating.

Cheers.

What I am about to post isn't a flame, merely an observation; most of the people that see an "issue" with newbies are AA forum regulars. Is there more of a problem in that forum than others? Did something happen in/to the AA forum that made this more of a problem than in the UA forum for example?

Yes. The AA forum seems to attract more than its share of trolls, lazy people with questions, or posters who want to know how to get something for nothing. The veterans, now being skeptical of everyone with a post count in the single digits, react in predictable (and to me, understandable) fashion and no doubt some innocent newbies get their feelings hurt. Then there is an outcry from the civility proponents and the mods rush in and suspend veterans for minor infractions, because "they should know better." Then valuable veterans leave and the board becomes richer in good manners but poorer in real, valuable and accurate information. It's sad.

And I did look at my first 5 posts from 5 years ago and saw nothing that I would be embarrassed about.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....

Many issues can be solved by simply restricting new members from starting a thread.

I originally proposed it to help the mods to make it harder for trolls get new ids or spammers selling the product to use FT, but it can also help newbies get familiar with FT before starting new topics.

Link to my original suggestion posted in Talk Board Topics

http://web4.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=635115

What vasantn said. Plus there was also the issue of... <censored because it's an off-limit area of discussion according to the ToS> ... and that's how it was.

Why separate the new members? Wouldn't a "Veterans zone" on the AA forum solve this problem? Especially if the problems seem to be more serious in just one forum?

FWIW; I read through the AA forum and can understand your concerns...