Why was this thread moved?
 

Why was this thread, and only this thread moved?

I realize that it exposed a rather unattractive side of several moderators, but I personally would like to see the thread stand and have those moderators who participated in the slander and gossip be held accountable for their actions.

Having witnessed, both first and second-hand some of the questionable activity that goes on behind closed doors on TalkBoard, and now seeing it second-hand on TalkTeam, my preference would be to eliminate private boards. There is nothing that needs to be said by either TalkBoard or TalkTeam members that can't be said in public and it would appear that the illusion of secrecy just brings out the worst in some folks.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

Punki, as you are aware, only Randy and his staff could have moved this thread.

I have never had any interaction with you in my 4,000+ posts on FT, but considering the nature of this weekend's events, one would think that you could take a break for one day from your relentless rhetoric that is bashing the moderators and the existence of private forums. Randy & the FT team have far more important issues to deal with than this. IMHO, you post regarding this thread is inappropriate and either could have waited until a resolution to this hacking occurred, or you could have emailed FT.



[This message has been edited by Rssrsvp (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

LOL! Is it cruel to say that I am terribly curious about what is being discussed in those "private" forums right now?

I had a similar suggestion in the Omni thread before that was locked:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The moderators have every right to talk about anything they want to, in private.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I completely agree, and it is a shame that their confidence was violated.

That said, from a pubic (and to a certain extent private) policy perspective, the greatest assest to comity and good leadership is sunshine. Star-chamber type smoky room gossip-mongering is fun and all (and God knows were I on that forum I'd engage in it), but this is two times now that Randy is being embarassed by what is being talked about behind his closed doors by his volunteer helpers. Were I Randy, going forward I would have decision-takers have discussions in a read-only (for all but the decision-makers) forum.

Yes it is true that such openness would stifle decision-takers frankness, but it would also assure decorum and fairness (or at least it would avoid slander).

Punki, it now appears that all of the threads involved in this hacking incident are being moved. IMHO, you have totally overreacted by your post.

It would appear Rssrsvp that you have been misinformed. I have never bashed any moderator and was an advocate for moderation long before it existed on FT. It is true that I have questioned the closing/moving of some threads and, as a result, some of them were reopened. Most Moderators do a really good job, but even the truly great one's like Craig and Gleff are not (and I am sure they will agree) flawless or perfect. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I did out Squeakr's false accusation in this thread. She misrepresented the facts and abused her authority, plain and simple. She should be held accountable for her actions as they reflect poorly not only on her, but on Randy and all the other moderators who are trying to do a great job.


[This message has been edited by Punki (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

You have quite a track record of complaining about moderators. Every single moderator is a volunteer or have you ignored this? If you have a complaint, why not deal with it in the most expeditious manner? By this I mean emailing Randy directly. You are a lady whom I assume has been in the business world for quite some time. You must realize that in order to get anything rectified, you take it off line. So to bring up an open ended complaint which you've held on numerous occasions here shows us that what you really want is an open-ended whining session. Now how is this productive?

If you were 18, maybe I could understand the need for attention as an 18 year old is new to the business world. But you're not; you are an accomplished woman. So why resort to this?

Oh, for crying out loud! Here we go again.

------------------
-alan in sitges, home of the new, improved Si-Re-Do

As I mentioned in my initial reply to you, I have never had any interaction with you before, and do not have an axe to grind. A simple search on the ORP board supports my statement regarding your views on moderation.

I stand by my previous remarks.

Analise, it would appear that you too are misinformed.

It is true that there is a small gang of folks who do a great deal of complaining every time I mention moderation, even when I am clearly in the right as in this instance, and the thread is reopened. These folks were moderated by me a couple of years ago on another website and are apparently playing "payback".

Obviously that gang has been somewhat successful at their game as they have convinced both you and and Rssrsvp of my guilt. If I think a thread is inappropriately moved or closed, I say so. Randy has indicated on several occasions that so doing is entirely appropriate, but search as you may,you will never find an instance of my "bashing" a moderator.

The issue with Squeakr is a separate matter. She misrepresented the facts and apparently thought she could get away with it because of my "reputation for not liking moderators". She does need to be held accountable for this action as it reflects poorly on FlyerTalk, Randy and all the rest of the moderators, most of whom do a really fine job.

I also hope that the moderators who participated in the slander and gossip within the TalkTeam thread are held accountable. They too reflect poorly on FT.

How does this:
comport with this:
?

It all comes down to this: if you want to effect change, you would do so directly. Not by starting a new topic of complaints.

Hey, I just realized how incredibly ironic it is that the very folks whose job it is to make sure that personal mentions, much less attacks, get a pad lock do so by engaging in the banned behavior, sometimes to disturbing lengths.

Does one really have to break the rules in order to enforce them?

Again, I'd prefer to see moderator deliberations in the open. As others mentioned, much of the moderators discussion that was revealed seemed totally appropriate and civil and I dont see any reason why these leaders would not say the same things in an open-to-read forum.

Guess what? You all made good points. But right now, I think that the absolute last thing we need is to inflame feelings any further.

That was exactly what the hoaxter was trying to accomplish and I, for one, don't want to award him a victory for his sick actions.

You know what, I don't think I ever really read one of your posts before someone asked for a timeout for you, but most of the posts I have seen from you really seem very reasonable.

That's only because you have never read the infamous "Unabashed Cholula Spam" thread on the Delta Board. If you do, you will NEVER accuse me of being "reasonable" again!

Punki-
I've taken the posts offline for me to get a chance to review. While a few of you may grouse at that, let's remember that the posts were done under a false user account and you surely can't deny that is not in the spirit of the TOS of FlyerTalk.

As for the posts, they are true comments made by moderators on FlyerTalk. I nor the moderators would deny that. But the way in which they have been presented are not a true and accurate reflection of the dialog. Also, there is not a single comment made by a moderator that was re-posted that has not been commented in almost the exact same way by other members of FlyerTalk, either on a post or in personal emails to me. I have always asked members AND moderators to give me your thoughts. I personally think, and you may disagree, that the most valuable asset I have to make decisions on behalf of all FlyerTalkers, is to listen to both sides of an argument or position. Let's take for instance ScottC's comments about ozstamps. ScottC's comments were likely somewhere between the 500th and 600th similar comment I've gotten about ozstamps since he's been on FlyerTalk. I've used all those comments balanced with others to make decisions about his presense on FlyerTalk. He's still posting so apparently that input was welcomed, measured and not put into action (ozstamps has always been open minded and fair minded with any conversation I've had with him, which is all I ask of a member). If, FlyerTalk were to evolve into an arena whereby members or others could not feel free to speak their mind to me, then FlyerTalk fails to be of value to all when it comes to making decisions on behalf of all members. And with a plug for the 'right' (for our good member dovester), isn't that why Rush Limbaugh is a larger-then-life hero when he spouts off about the Democrats and more directly about Bill Clinton, Kerry or Dean?

The point being, there is none, nor has there been a great and rather lengthy debate of these types of posts. I ask for comment, measure them and move on. I feel that FlyerTalk would suffer if there was only a community of 'yes' members. I like the balance of opinion and have relied upon it for over five years now.

I have taken down TalkTeam for viewing by moderators because I can not look them in the eye and welcome their comments in this manner any more - in effect, I have failed them, not the members.

So, I continue to try and answer these questions as I might and as you know, sometimes i agree, sometimes I don't.

As an aside Punki, can you explain the purpose of having the moderator and other forums on moremiles.org private and not available to all members? I only just ventured there today to compare our practices with other boards and I would hope you agree - our practices are 100 percent in line with the prevailing practices of all major Internet bulletin boards. I really don't need an explanation, just a confirmation that we're more like most than not?

[This message has been edited by Randy Petersen (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

Dovster's reasonable -- until and unless you add an "E" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif j/k -- even if some would consider him "wrong" on some political positions.

Perhaps it (the thread) was moved because the guy whose name appears on this forum does not necessarily share the views about the sunshine law. Note that it's not the only thread that was moved out of ORP. I am a betting man, and I've got $20 that it's not a coincidence. edited to add: Randy beat me to the punch, so clearly I win $20. If he brings them back, I lose the bet.

The reason (and I'm speaking for myself here, certainly not Randy or any other moderator) that mods like to discuss their actions (or potential actions) among themselves is to avoid exactly what we have had here in the last 3 days.

Mod1: User X is doing something bad.

Mods2-5: discussing action.

Consensus: ask Randy to intervene in the form of a timeout.

Can you imagine what this would look like if it was deliberated in the open? If User X is part of one of the many established cliques?

And, the funniest part about all of this is that, with the exception of the OMNI "exception," the moderators lack the ability to actually time somebody out from a technical perspective. Randy (or somebody at webflyer) has to be the trigger.

Forget that example. Let's say I have a thread that I happen to think needs to be intervened in or perhaps locked. Why in the world should I not be able to discuss that in confidence with a group of people who are peers (in terms of being able to move/lock/edit threads)? It can (and has) often resulted in much better decisions for flyertalk as a whole.

edited to subtract: a bunch of theories that Randy confirmed before I got the chance to hit submit.

------------------
Don't feed the trolls.


[This message has been edited by ClueByFour (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

Randy, I sincerely hope you didn't use your FT password when you signed up at MoreMiles. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

------------------
-alan in sitges, home of the new, improved Si-Re-Do

I just almost spit coffee on my laptop http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif.

I'm curious, what kind of law do you practice? Do you have a practice in California?

I work as a strategy consultant now. I am admitted to the bar in NY and in Germany (I am German), but I do not practice law anymore. Next, I would be interested in either managing an Internet/media company or working in Private Equity/M&A, since I believe both would allow for being more proactive and creative - in my case and fitting my talents and interests, not saying at all that lawyers cannot be proactive and creative working as lawyers.

If you need a good lawyer in California, I can refer you to a friend of mine who is excellent, though. Also, I believe there are some lawyers admitted in California who post here on the board.

That is a great idea UALOneKPlus is always in need of a good lawyer http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

That's true!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Thanks for the info attorney28. I was just curious.

Is that just a joke in your profile with www.despair.com or are you really affiliated with them? I think they are pretty funny, I have had the "procrastination" one on my desktop for a while.

It's just a joke. I wish I was smart enough to be affiliated with them. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I really like their stuff. It helps people deal with frustrations of work.

Originally posted by kokonutz:
Originally posted by Randy Petersen:
As I read down this page, I was prepared to give an endorsement to the creative and well-intentioned idea of kokonutz. It seemed a good attempt to solve the problem of overly clique-influenced decision-making.

Yet this is the only bulletin board I frequent, so I lack the perspective of many others. The counter-argument seems equally compelling.

Openness, sunshine, and even freedom of speech are not the highest virtues. Yes, we may have the divine gift of free will, but that means the option to do wrong. Other values, namely decorum, fairness, and slander-avoidance are at least as pertinent to the decisions Randy will have to make. (Thank you for pointing those out, kokonutz.)

Societal interests in open candid deliberation under certain circumstances are reflected in the various confidentiality privileges: doctor-patient, priest-penitent, husband-wife, psychotherapist-patient, etc. Other confidential communications are also protected, such as within business or fraternal organizations, though disclosure may be ordered during lawsuits, etc. One moral justification for confidentiality is avoidance of the sin of "detraction," unnecessarily disclosing the faults of others.

When I alluded to "overly clique-influenced decision-making," I did not mean by any means to disparage our host, nor the hard-working and often-put-upon moderator corps. One element of human nature is our social tendency to form relationships. Sometimes they may be based on similar interests, political, philosophical, religious, or lifestyle outlooks, common experiences, demographics, institutional membership, personal attraction, propinquity, or serendipity. Hopefully an enthusiasm for miles and points is a common denominator!

Because of human nature, it is inevitable that friendships and cliques will form, as well as antipathies. The positive and welcoming interactions actually strengthen the community aspect of the Flyer Talk experience.

Trying to limit the negative tendencies of the membership has been to a large extent solved by the dedicated moderator corps. What remains is the much more limited problem of imposing self-discipline on themselves.

Again, this is not an anti-moderation post. Not so incidentally, the problems among the membership as a whole that do require and will always require moderation have not abated. People with a high interest in points and miles tend to be goal oriented, competitive, and often somewhat obsessive. Hence the repeated refrain, "IJAIBB." If travel or temperament limits personal interactions, we may have reduced social skills. Hence, people who cannot conform their behavior to the expected norms will often carry a heavy burden or "grudge," and be expected to strike back, particularly if expelled from the community.

However, such behavior may also be expected on occasion among the Elite members of Flyer Talk, that is, high post-count individuals and the moderator corps itself. Particularly when their status and self-sacrifice are seen as denigrated or unappreciated.

I certainly do not believe you have let your moderator corps down, Randy. Given the strong-willed individuals who are members of Flyer Talk, such "hacking" incidents resulting in compromised confidentiality are by no means unexpected. Likewise, techniques to restore self-discipline are readily available. Two that come to mind are:

• moderation for the moderators
• background checks for the moderators

The former may be resisted just as moderation for the community was (and still is to a somewhat disruptive degree by a nostalgic few. Some people need to learn how to say, "Aye, aye, sir," and move on.) Yet the benefits of moderation are the same. If one, two, or three individuals whose judgment is sound and whose experience in miles and points is substantial, such as PremEx, for example, can be prevailed upon to serve as a "Dean of the Moderators" or moderator of the moderators forum, some of the excesses in the confidential fora might be able to be nipped in the bud or turned toward a more charitable and productive direction.

Similarly, given the vast authority of the moderators to influence the reception and perceptions, welcoming or otherwise, of Flyer Talk participants, it may be advisable to do some sort of background check. Particularly if moderators have technical skills that exceed those of your own IT staff, it is particularly important to know exactly who you're dealing with. A hacker with inside access, or who is disgruntled and formerly had inside access, perhaps installing a back door, leaves your website very vulnerable indeed. This vulnerability could extend from the non-profit aspect of your enterprises to the heart of the House of Miles itself. What if the Freddies, or advertiser accounts are hacked?

While the moderator corps consists of unpaid, self-sacrificing individuals who toil day in and day out, all it takes is one bad apple to cause major problems. An argument against background checks might be that they are not fool proof. Even the FBI had its spy. But that is really no justification for doing nothing. To the extent those who help you have access to inside information, surely most moderators would understand the need for background checks.

These are just two thoughts. I'm sure the remainder of the participants will think of many more.

Don't let this latest crime discourage you. I know from experience that crime victims often tend to blame themselves. We're all pulling for you!

This appears to have been an idea acted upon somewhat Kokonutz as a brand new Forum has just been opened to replace the old Moderators Forum, called:

Private ORP

For posting and proceedure review purposes only

I welcome Moderators ... moderating. Which IIRC is what they were introduced to do. To save time and work for Randy and staff. Moving mis-posted threads. Steering their Forums gently along. And hosing out Flames that very seldom occur now anyway. And locking or moving any thread that does not comply with any of the above.

A very small group of Moderators who appeared to be on an ever-escalating power trip let Randy down, (and their colleagues, most of whom do superb jobs) NOT the other way around. IMHO.

As I have posted recently there were 3 Flyertalk boards in existence until today:

Flyertalk Miles, Flyertalk Travel and Flyertalk Moderation.

In 99% of cases a polite email to the poster involved surely gets the desired result for a moderator, rather than a group huddle and often back-stabbing discussion being necessary?

Having a private Star Chamber with more gossip and defamation than the 'National Enquirer' was not welcome. By me anyway.

I applaud the new forum and the apparent idea behind it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

It will have no effect whatever on correct and prudent moderation.

I think it will make for a smoother, quieter, more enjoyable Flyertalk in general and a MUCH quieter and more pleasant "Only Randy Petersen" Forum. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

=================================


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

There has been a lot of talk about my views on moderation, by a lot of people. Most of what they say, together with what some of you to apparently believe, is simply not accurate. I guess that just proves that Hitler was right--If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough and often enough, then (some) people will believe it as the truth.

So to set the record straight, here are my real views on moderation:

1. First, I actually think that most moderators do a pretty good job.

2. I think more flames and attacks should be deleted (from private as well as public forums). Far too many are allowed to stand unchallenged.

3. I think that if there is a logical reason to leave a thread where it is originally posted, that it should be left alone. Some (only a very few) moderators appear to think that if there is any small justification for moving a thread, that it should be moved.

4. I think that "duplicate" threads should only be closed when there is a currently active thread on the same subject. I have seen instances where moderators have closed threads with a note that simply said, "this has been discussed before" or "as there are ideas for alternatives in many fora I am closing this one". If we started closing every thread on every topic that had been previously discussed, three wouldn't be much to talk about on FlyerTalk anymore.

That's about it, regardless of what anyone else might try to convince you that I believe. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

The lack of respect for the sandbox and the guy who owns it is absolutely amazing.

Randy (not the moderators) created the Talkteam forum. Randy encouraged mods to discuss moderation issues. Somebody leaks information from the forum, and several posters who clearly lack respect for the community post private information. Randy closes the forum because he cannot offer the mods a forum to welcome their comments in a manner in which he intended (eg, private), and the very people who helped further this shame on the collective house by posting private information are gloating.

I renew my call for permanent bans for any and all posters involved in the act of posting private forum information in a public setting.

If nothing else, I continue to be amazed at Randy's patience. If somebody whizzed in my sandbox the way that many around here do on a regular basis, I would not be nearly as tolerent (much less the second time around, for some).

------------------
Don't feed the trolls.

Have the people that have received confidential, leaked information from either of the "private" forums on FT (TalkTeam or TalkBoard) forwarded that info to Randy or other Webflyer staff for investigation?

Can we leave Hitler out of this, at least?

ozstamps said that he had - I think Randy should give him props for that. At least one other said that they wouldn't (!).

Affirming Adolf Hitler? My God....

Randy, moving all of the threads makes sense. It really looked odd when the one relating to me was the only one that was moved.

This is especially true since, in my case at least, ClueByFour's, "first step" didn't exist (as a matter of fact, neither did steps two or three). http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Mod1: User X is doing something bad.

Mods2-5: discussing action.

Consensus: ask Randy to intervene in the form of a timeout.

The discussion (and I use that term loosely) about me was initiated by B747-437B who stated: "As many of you have probably noticed, yesterday Punki started yet another
thread criticizing Steve's action, and the moderation process as a whole," referring to this thread.

Is it inherently "bad" to question a moderator's action? In this case the the original moderator reopened the thread as a result of my post. Does that make him "bad" as well?

Well despite the fact that I was right, B747-437B continued on with his totally off-topic insults. Other moderators (some of whom I previously respected) also jumped into the fray slinging their own totally irrelevant mud.

I couldn't believe that techgirl actually posted: "Earlier this morning, I donned my flame retardant suit and moved her "off topic" post about seeing FTers names in license plates to OMNI.
Can't wait to see how she complains about us squelching her fun." Sounds like her only goal was to stir up trouble. How does this help Randy or FlyerTalk?

OK, back to the thread that started the moderator discussion. A lot of other folks (many of them moderators) jumped into the fray and made a lot of false statements to and about me, many of which should have IMHO been deleted by a moderator as they were clear TOS violations. It is amusing that most of the poster did not even realizing that the original moderator evidentally agreed with me and reopened the thread.

The Result: The memory with which many of you are left is that that Punki is a bad person who hates moderators. Guess Hitler understood the average Joe pretty darned well. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Glad to know that there are at least some of you who read and understand a little bit more than the average guy in his target audience. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Yes, Randy, MoreMiles does have a private moderators forum. There are some MM moderators who have strong opinions regarding some MM posters, but I assure you that I have never seen any off topic back-biting or gossip within that forum. I think you know Rudi, BlondeBomber, dgolds and I (among many others) well enough to know that that type of activity would not be condoned in our presence.



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

No need to get alarmist. There is not a terrorist or a hyper-skilled hacker behind every bush.

Background checking the moderators will do truly little and if anything discourage some from participating and going through that headache. [Note: One of the best sources for identity theft and related pilfering is background check related data submissions and the background check processes themselves.]

No one is advocating doing nothing. Some of us, myself in particular, are saying that the sky is not falling ... and merely updating the security from a technical side and a revision in access privileges and a decision-making/access rights matrix is sufficient action. Bringing in the federales and a private sector company or two is just excessive and a waste of resources. If we start adding to Randy's burden he may just decide to dump this entirely -- sooner than later.

Often is not always or is it, Randy? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I truly cannot see Randy running around like a chicken without his head saying: "I'm a victim! I'm a victim. It's all my fault! It's all my fault!"

I'll second that thought.

FewMiles..

What I was affirming, Analise is that Hitler clearly understood how easy it was to manipulate the mind of shallow thinkers with lies, and that is certainly truth.

Fortunately, there were some who were smart enough and brave enough to withstand.

Anyone heard of Godwin's Law?

Mention Hitler or Nazis - this thread is now deemed CLOSED!!!

I am still laughing at the ever dwindling number of loose cannon Mods who have posted to this thread, who - * * make NO mistake whatever * * , directly initiated all this fracas, and caused their own Star Chamber board to be closed, and yet are yelling for everyone's heads to be lopped off - except their own. It is like a bad driver weaving through traffic lanes without indicating, causing accidents and chaos all behind him, and thinking he is not the cause - "the other guys are Officer".

Talk about "The Emperors with no clothes" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

Pretty weird sense of values and morality. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Flyertalk IMHO will be stronger and better and more transparent from this day on. And certainly more enjoyable and fair for ALL who use it.

As Kokonutz (and others) have opined in recent days - exposure to bright sunlight DOES have that effect. Even bruised egos get a nice sun-tan eventually.

Randy has acted wisely in my view, as he always does, and I feel sure hopes in a day or so when this is but a faded memory that Flyertalk is a friendlier and more useful place, to learn and talk about miles and points - and NOT discuss private closed trials. Of which there will be no more.

------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

Anyway, I still don't see the point of bringing Hitler into this, and no matter the context, I find it very questionable to quote Hitler as being right on anything.

Being German, I would ask you to remove these references.