Bringing Hitler into this as an example of how a person can manipulate things in a bad way:

Blowing things out of proportion, no matter what someone here might have done to manipulate opinions or whatever.

Bringing Hitler into this to say he did something right (which I know is not what you intended to do):

Even worse.

So either way, the Hitler reference is, with all due respect, unnecessary and out of line.

The point of giving Hitler credit for this very applicable and appropriate quote:

is, Attorney28, that he is actually the author of the statement. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif I thought about taking credit for it myself, but, unfortunately, I can't lie with a straight face. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/redface.gif

The fact that I can acknowledge that Hitler had a good understanding of how to manipulate with lies, only indicates that I am smart, not that he was right. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif It really doesn't take a genius IQ to recognize that a paper hanger who made a good shot at conquering the world, must have been a good manipulator.

Having been German for a lot longer than you, I think I will just leave the quote alone. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif The only thing worse than a stubborn German is a stubborn old German.

Note: Saying the name Hitler is not a TOS violation.



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited Feb 03, 2004).]

attorney28. I agree 100% with you there is no need to mention Hitler on FT. I honestly do not feel anyone was being insulting to Germans or yourself on FT.

Perhaps some may not have heard of the Godwin's Law I quoted above:

Godwin's Law

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet]

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms...win_s_Law.html

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

You know, while I can't speak for every other moderator, I called for your timeout for intentionally and knowingly posting information from a clearly private forum onto a public forum. If it makes you feel any better, I'm more than happy to call for your timeout here in a public forum for exactly the same reasons.

You clearly don't support Randy's action or the house in general--if you had, you would not have posted what you did.

Quote:

---

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Randy has acted wisely in my view, as he always does, and I feel sure hopes in a day or so when this is but a faded memory that Flyertalk is a friendlier and more useful place, to learn and talk about miles and points - and NOT discuss private closed trials. Of which there will be no more.

---

Pot. Kettle. Black.


------------------
Don't feed the trolls.

HEY!

Pot. Kettle. Black. is [b]MY[b] line.

Next thing you know, people will be (Loving that bolding)!

That is the only thing is your post I agree with.

YOUR specific secret thoughts on my "Banning on general principles" (that no-one asked you for, least of all myself or Randy) were posted here all weekend for ALL to see, so 'bravely' posting them 'publicly' now, whilst thumping your chest with the other hand is certainly pretty courageous - I don't think. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

p.s. ... so have you now purchased Flyertalk? Or perhaps I just missed the apparent public call for your opinions on banning me from FT?

Enjoy the sun-tan. You are NOW what you post. Publicly. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

If you think all your posts here in the past 2 days exhibit placid, helpful, even tempered and objective and exemplary manners and behaviour, that one associates with a good moderator, and a friendly bulletin board - you are of course entitled to your opinion.

All I can think is that it must be getting awful lonely out on the end of that limb. The other 50-100 whatever moderators seem to have calmly accepted the decision, and moved on.

=================================================


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

That is absolutely hysterical! I never heard of that one-- soooooo funny! (And so true.)

You wanted sunshine, you have sunshine. Once again, you have ignored the context of my post, so I will bold it again in the hopes that you get it:

I think that anyone who posts information from a private forum on flyertalk into a public forum on flyertalk should be banned.

That's been the context of my comment on every forum, public or private on flyertalk on this particular issue. I urge you to take it up with Randy if you seek further clarification or corroboration. Randy is a kind enough individual that he will probably give you the corroboration you allegedly seek--if I were in his shoes, I'd tell you to pound salt (I don't like it when somebody defecates in my virtual living room).

You know, there is a very simple solution to keep the board owner or the folks who he has appointed to stop discussing anything you might say or do, and that's to stop violating the TOS and posting information from a clearly private forum just to stir up trouble.

I don't think you will do that, as I truly believe you thrive more on the rabble-rousing than actually trying to better the community. I'd like to be wrong, but history is stronger than the desire of any one man.

------------------
Don't feed the trolls.

[This message has been edited by ClueByFour (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

Hmmm. Just did a search and you had no comment whatever to make that I can see when kokonutz originally did just this, and he did so repeatedly again just this weekend.

So what is your specific definition of "every" forum?

Never mind. 'Selective memory' is like bird flu - it is widespread. I have made my point, and stand by it, will let others judge your credibility against mine, and will NOT anger Randy by continuing to engage you here.

I will simply turn on my shiny new "ignore user" filter to you from now on in this thread. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

(p.s. - isn't that what good moderators are advised to tell others?) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif



------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

Oh, pluh-eease http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Star Chamber, you been watching way too many conspiracy movies.

If we talked in there about other members was regarding ways of handling issues with trouble makers.

There were a couple of threads about you if I remember correctly http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

So please, let's not blow things out of proportion.

Whoever this troll was he/she posted in this forum were a bunch of half lies, posted only partial information that suited his purposes, and twisted the truth to make his point.

Every single place on this planet, needs a place for the people who are trying to help run it and have a private conversation.

If we wanted to keep things a secret as you insinuated we did, we would have taken it to email. But instead we choose a forum that was created for all moderators, so we could share that information and get everyones input. Not all of us have a vendetta against other users.

If we were really conspiring about you, you would not know about it.

So please, everyone here that is relishing that this information got out and somehow your life got validated , take a chill pill.

We moderators are here to help, and we will continue to do so until Randy decides otherwise.


I am sick and tired of people just taking cheap shots at us.


I might regret this post later, but right now this is the way I feel http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

jfe writes:

I resemble that remark. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

You know, "this particular issue" refers to your massive violation of the house of flyertalk. You know that, but just can't stop. Turning on the ignore-user barb simply indicates to Randy, myself, and everyone that can read that you know you are wrong, as evidenced by the fact that you never did address the bolded issues posted in this thread.

I won't touch the credibility issue--mine is fine, I am and remain proud to be associated with the current group of moderators.

I won't touch the behavior barb either--I urge you to take any concerns you might have to Randy privately. I have faith, based on some of the decisions that he has made in the past regarding the behaviors of various FT members that he will do whatever is best for the FT community, and I'm fully prepared to support those actions, whatever they may be. I am far more concerned with the good of the flyertalk community than I am about the cliques, egos, and troublemaking that some seem to enjoy.


------------------
Don't feed the trolls.

Imagine that three men were running for office today.

All three are excellent orators but have little else in common.

Man # 1 is tremendously overweight, smokes cigars incessently, drinks daily (often finishing a bottle of brand in a single day), loves beef, and has, a poodle named "Rufus".

Man # 2 is the youngest of the three, looks to be in good physical condition, does not smoke nor drink alcohol, is a vegetarian, and has a manly-type dog (Alsatian) called "Biondi". Additionally, while he has a girlfriend, it is a serious relationship and he does not cheat on her.

Man # 3 is is severely physically handicapped. He is a chain smoker and actually uses a long cigarette holder. He, like Man # 1, likes to drink -- albeit not quite as much. He enjoys meat and his preferences run to gourmet food. He has one of those tiny dogs -- a Scottie named Fala. Although married, he has been having an affair for years.

Which of these three would gather the most votes -- especially from the Politically Correct set?

# 1 = Winston Churchill
# 2 = Adolph Hitler
# 3 = Franklin Roosevelt

Hmm.........

Not taking your own advice to heart? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif

Aaahh. Another Moderator with selective /reading memory disorder? As I said to your colleague above (now on "ignore user" feature) - like Bird Flue .. that disorder spreads fast. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

jfe. I think you are a decent kind of guy, and we have never had any runs-ins of any kind, on any Forum IIRC, and from what I have seen of your actions and postings you have been pretty balanced and even-handed.

But IMO you are now getting caught up in the: "All bad things in the world including El Niño, the weak dollar, and Bird Flue are all due to ozstamps" camp.

This camp is about 1% the size it used to be here, but it certainly exists.

If you care to READ this thread you might have noticed that the term "Star Chamber" was used first, not by me, but by kokonutz. So why not highlight HIS quote ... not mine? Gets back to El Niño answer I think,. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Well now I have stopped laughing let me respond that that FT classic line.

Moderators were taking both cheap shots at me (and others) AND conspiring. And ONLY because they THOUGHT I and others did not know about it.

They, as history now shows us, were totally and completely wrong.

As they say in the Army - "the ONLY way a secret between 2 people stays a secret is when one of those persons is dead".

Did you happen to glance at this Board on the weekend? There were a half dozen or so threads outlining this and other back-stabbing .... word for word. Randy confirmed today the words were all real.

I did not post the threads and have absolutely no clue who did, and Randy knows and accepts this AFAIK. Whomever was stealing passwords and ID's etc deserves to be drop-kicked to Mongolia with a steel capped boot, and I still am not sure how it was possible to do that.

However these threads were quoting real defamatory stuff IMO. Word for word. From Moderators. About other Flyertalkers. Behind their backs.

Were some threads akin to a "Star Chamber". YES - they were. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif And sorry - neither you nor anyone else can re-write history and claim they were NOT.

I screen saved them as I felt sure they'd be archived Monday - want me to email them to refresh your memory of them? Glad to assist. Not one word of apology or contrition from any Mod quoted on there - not to other FT'ers they'd defamed, or to Randy as a matter of record. Lots of finger pointing at many others though. Like kids with their hands caught in a cookie jar. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

So the VERY few apparently power drunk moderators who turned the Mods board into a B grade Jerry Springer for a while got it closed down for all the non-controversial Mods - those IMO being the great majority I might add. Closed down by THEIR posts - no-one esle's posts. Too bad. Blame them, not anyone else.

Hey ... maybe they caused El Niño? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif


================================================== ====


[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

I think the focus is on the "bad thing" you did by posting a record of the private moderator forum in a public place.

That's the point Clue's making, and it's a good one.

Randy created the forum and he was aware of the content. It operated with his approval.

You pooped on his dinner table. He'll have to decide what (if any) punishment that may deserve, but I think a lot of us are shocked that you don't "get" the fact that you've done something inappropriate.

As far as I know, Randy already made that decision, and the decision was no punishment.

Where should Randy start? By now, he would need to ban a bunch of his moderators and several other people if he really wanted to have some consistent enforcement.

At the same time, some of these moderators seem to have formed a coalition with the main agenda of trying to force certain posters they don't like off the board.

At the same time, one person keeps starting new threads about why this thread was moved, why that thread was closed, etc., and keeps these threads alive until people just get tired of answering.

One person keeps calling for the FBI and secret service http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif.

It's a bit of a mess...even though I would love to have Randy's mileage balance and his knowledge about loyalty programs, for once I have to say I really would not want to be in his shoes.

I would suggest everyone just slowly backs away from their keyboards and gets some sleep.

At least that's what I will do http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif.

Well balanced, and even handed http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif, you need to talk to my shrink to get the whole truth http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

[quote]<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ozstamps:
[b]Moderators were taking both cheap shots at me (and others) AND conspiring. And ONLY because they THOUGHT I and others did not know about it. They, as history now shows us, were totally wrong.

Cheap shots, the only ones I am looking at are the ones taking to moderators as a whole. And no, we were not conspiring, but venting the frustration that this job sometimes bring


Of course I read them, and I read them inside the now defunct board originally, and I can tell you, that some people made some of the moderators mad, so which better way to see if someone is overreacting than to share that with your fellow moderators, and see what everyones reaction is.

I don't know who posted them either, and not sure if we ever will.

But whoever did it, their whole purpose was to create a negative image of moderators.

And no, we are not prefect, we do get pissed of at people who act mightier that thou, and cannot recognize that their actions are wrong.

I have admitted being wrong in my actions in the past, nobody here is perfect.

Acting in a cowardly way as to posting under a fake ID is as bad as the people who think who condone such actions under the umbrella that now the truth has been exposed.

Please, everyone just chill out and let's keep using this board as it was intended to be.

You actually started posting stuff from a private forum before this past weekend.

------------------
Don't feed the trolls.

[This message has been edited by ClueByFour (edited Feb 02, 2004).]

Well I did say you were well-balanced. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Very good advice. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

It seems none of the moderators posting on this page have noticed, ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) but this thread seems to had nothing whatever to do with the thread TOPIC for quite a while, so if I may put my unpaid and totally unofficial Ansett Forum moderator hat on, may I politely suggest we ALL give Randy one less ulcer today, and proceed to respond to just THAT topic? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I imagine he has far more important and pressing things to deal with right now than considering timing out many of us posting so far on this thread.

So:

"Why was this thread moved?"

Perhaps people are tired of talking about HRH, so their attention is turned elsewhere.

FewMiles..

Well to take my own advice, (something that often gets me into BIG trouble!) I went to make a post that directly addressed the thread starter's post, which to save you clicking back a page was:

Now I am smiling here to realise this thread is now 2 pages long, and it appears not one person has actually clicked on the embedded links Punki was referencing. (???)

Both those hot links take ME to:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000337.html

Which, without wishing to appear to speak for Punki (she does a very good job on her own doing that!) does not LOOK like a thread she'd be concerned about being closed down? Enough to start a thread on, anyway?

And I do not see any of the few posts there that would have me calling for "those moderators who participated in the slander and gossip be held accountable for their actions."

And it did not for me: "expose a rather unattractive side of several moderators" (Poor moderator flipside will be grievously offended if you are referring to him/her IMO!(

So Punki ... I can only guess the thread you did reference originally now has had its original URL allocated to :

"Florida Keys" ( ?????????? )

OR ... that you mis-posted the thread URL in your initial post?

What was the thread you WERE drawing to this board's attention?




------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

Before I leave for bed, as it is getting extremely late in here, I only have one question to ask all of those that are enjoying this latest incident.

Out of all those people, that us moderators were "conspiring" against, how many them were actually banned from FT?

I don't have the list of people, but since ozstamps has saved all of them, maybe he can refresh my memory.

All the people mentioned can post in FT, whether they do it or not is out of their own free will.

And no one here can deny, that some of those people mentioned are either very active and sometimes controversial individuals.

It is no wonder that they might have frustrated a few of us, and that is the reason why we post it those frustrations.

Every single job in the world causes frustration, this shouldn't be the exception.

And now, I will go to bed, and as fas as the question in hand, I have no clue why those posts are now in the Florida keys.

Maybe they entered the Bermuda triangle by accident http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Absolutely unbelievable. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Moderators: hang in there, I think a large majority of the FT community support and appreciate your daily efforts ... and when they disagree with your decisions, they manage to do so in a mature, respectful manner that doesn't disrupt the community.

Thanks again.

Yooo Hooo - a post actually (partially) related to the thread title. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

ozstamps
&lt;lurk mode off&gt;
FYI - I followed that link when Punki first posted this thread. IIRC, it was the TalkTeam one about Punki's "objections to moderation" and it was the first of the TalkTeam threads to be moved. It was definitely not one that related to Florida Keys http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I'm presuming that the eventual removal of that and all the other TalkTeam threads caused the URL referencing to go "screwy" (and yes, that's a technical term http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif)
&lt;lurk&gt;

Cheers

Michael

I wonder if the moving of those threads from ORP also caused them to be removed from my computer, where I had saved them.

There is, obviously, a very miserable person, with a bit of hacking knowledge and a grudge against me, on the loose. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

There are some strange folks out there creating some strange days.

Couldn't agree more. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

Which of the moderator quotes posted over the weekend were false? None of them. They were all verbatim and accurate. Randy confirmed this.

Please don't try to re-write history now that the proof is no longer posted on the bulletin board.


Ah, you're talking about Ozstamps, Gaucho100K, doc, Punki, and others who were the "subjects" of moderators' forum "conversations," right?

Or were they spreading slander about you and hijacking the passwords to your accounts to make vicious posts?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Love that bolding!

[This message has been edited by Enquiring Mind (edited Feb 03, 2004).]

Than ban me first, as I certainly did post in FT public forums the allegedly slanderous comments that cigarman made about me to the original talkboard. Both for confirmation and also for confrontation.

And as I said, the original emails came unsolicited from insiders.

And if you think that I am going to name names or blame the whitle-blowers then you are more nutz than I am!

I have acutally been on both sides of this disaster. I basically quit moderating duties on mmiles when I felt that the moderators began taking and reacting personally to moderation issues. There also developed a sort of short-hand for dealing with perceived trouble-makers with which I was not comfortable. So I left. I know moderating can be a frustrating and seemingly thankless task and I know that I do not have a thick enough skin or a stong enough sense of fair-mindedness to do it properly. As I admit above, were I in that star-chamber (my term!) I would have behaved similarly.

Look, there is no sense in:
1) any more blame game or
2) any more hurt feelings/egos/pride.

For one thing, that is not what this COMMUNITY is supposed to be about. Second, it is JAFIBB.

How about this: I propose that whether I am banned or not for my year-old revelations, all parties, anonymous or not, involved in this mess gather together at a central location, and I will host an open bar so we can lubricate relationships and start the healing process (and, of course, give little-needed fodder to the 'boy does that koko drink too much' rumor mill http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif).

Such a gathering would be, IMHO, not only in the true spirit of flyertalk, it would also provide an opportunity for a much-needed group hug.

That's kinda out of context.

Surprised you're back - I thought we'd be without any FUD today. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And the point of all this is who you think should be banned is not relevent. It is the members job to post information on travel, points, and miles, and then replys or responses on their opinions on travel, points, and miles. It is moderators job to moderate the discussion. Stop flaming, trolls, and to keep the discussion on topic.

No where in there do members have the right or obligation to ban or timeout members. That right or obligation is Randy's.

Moderators had a great forum for discussing moderation. Some moderators began discussing non-moderation issues in that forum. That seems to me to be a problem.

If I have mis-understood anything please correct me and I apoligize in advance.

------------------
dallasflyer, Living in Denver and Dallas, oh boy!

[This message has been edited by dallasflyer (edited Feb 03, 2004).]

Well as to the open bar - that I can easily arrange. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

Now as to "central location" ... there is always SYDNEY on May 20/23. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

C'mon kokonutz .... you must have a million UA miles looking to be spent on a 120K First Class Sleeper award down here before they crank it up to 200K which will occur this year IMO.

A number of familiar faces are signed up already. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

Anyone who makes it down ... drinks are on me. Or as Rudi often carefully posts - "one (1) drink is on me".

Someone will need to take the photo of the "group hug" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif


------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

And I'm surprised some people insist on utilizing these threads to continue to attack Ozstamps, Punki, et al.

They can't let it go.

He didn't ban Oz, or Punki, or kokonutz, or doc, or Dovster, or any of the people whom the current bullies-of-the-moment demands that he ban.

Randy closed the gossip shack.

Now move on and stop the bashing.

End of story.

??

I thought the goal of this little bit of civil disobedience was to get these discussions in the open. It's inconsistent to demand that and then complain when it occurs.

I don't think Randy has given his final word on the topic, and I, for one won't be persuaded by a fake alter ego that the issue is closed. Can't speak for anyone else.

The issue of massive TOS violations certainly continues if you maintain this second handle.

I hope you keep pushing Randy to ban members, Jeremy. Push it baby! Demand justice! After all, you deserve action on your complaints!

Go ahead. Make my day.

Bingo!

Lets hope that a lot more of BOTH occurs from now on. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif



------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

If I were Randy (and on this day thank god I'm not) I would say one thing-- loudly and clearly: "All criticisms of moderator's actions, attitudes or demeanor are to be directed to ME, via e-mail and not posted publicly."

IMHO, that would end all this nonsense and whining.

Umm, I actually did, in two places--one via an e-mail to Randy and a subsequent conversation in a private forum.

Or did you forget that part?


------------------
Don't feed the trolls.

Do you really think that you will make flyertalk self destruct by doing this? It's not going to happen, thus ruining an attempt by an otherwise little man to do little man's work in a little man's way.

Did I mention that there won't be a revolution and it won't be televised, simply because televison is for suckers who can't keep up with the new media?

If you want to troll, let's bait the hook and put all the cards on the table (cheese on the pizza, graham crust on the pie, whatever your analogy happens to be).

Does this need to continue, or do you want to come clean?


------------------
Don't feed the trolls.