An offer to sell miles
 

In this LH forum

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum32/HTML/003492.html

Someone has offered to sell 100K mileage packages, which violates the TOS. Can someone please close the thread. Thank you.

It looks like the LH forum's moderator has already addressed the issue. Thanks, Patron!

Good to see such overt selling getting sprung. HOWEVER the link above clearly has the original poster's email address and more importantly gist of his message is still there in Canarsie's quote of his post. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Might be prudent for Patron to edit that out too? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif


------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

Thank's for your heads up, ozstamps, I did as requested.

I was going to suggest that, as I of course could not do it myself since the thread was locked, but the task is already done.

I have been wondering to myself what compelled me to even quoted that entire post, including the Internet address.

Thank you, ozstamps and Patron.

[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

Then obviously, there is a double-standard or a misunderstanding in how these things are or should be addressed among the moderators themselves. Example?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/012104.html

Anyone care to comment?

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

In the thread you reference I find no offer to sell/buy miles/points/awards for cash, rather an exchange.

The practices of the Coupon Connection are addressed in the Coupon Connection FAQ, which is prefaced by Randy Petersen's statement "If visiting or exchanging items here, we strongly suggest to read this most excellent guide to this particular forum...."

There have been a number of threads in the last year or two on the general topic you are raising in the Only Randy Petersen forum.

Chuck
aka cblaisd
Moderator, Coupon Connection

Thanks for the explanation; however, the TOS says this:

"Condoning of Illegal Activity

Posts that condone illegal activity (i.e., buying and selling of awards, direct fraud upon any program) will be removed without notice and accounts subject to deletion! We're not the law, but we know where they are."

I am pretty sure that if something violates the Terms and Conditions of a program - hotel or otherwise - then it could be considered direct fraud upon any program.

Then again I also consider it fraudulent to try and gain from something for which you were never intended. No doubt others will disagree. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

Without checking the link I repeat my assertion that starwood lurker is here for his and starwood's best interest - to heck with FT.

You should resign your position on talkboard as you obviously have no interest in the spirit of FT, only protecting your employer. It is attitudes like yours which make me shun your properties.

The "spirit" of Flyertalk is not to commit program fraud and violations.

Now hold on a minute. That's not fair.

While I grant you, Starwood Lurker works for *wood, I'd expect him to 'look out' for his company. Since the pros and cons of this have been discussed multiple times ... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif I won't re-hash it.

Many Many times over the years, Starwood Lurker has been here for many of us. Lots of problems have been solved quickly. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

While there appears to be a conflict re Starwood representation on Talk Board (a topic for Talk Board), we need to discussion William on the merits http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
There are 2 Williams here. One who represents *wood; and the other William ... a Flyertalker!

Thanks. I take it then that you are one of those who disagree. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

That's the lovely thing about Flyertalk, isn't it? Everyone who is a registered user gets to state their point of view, whether it agrees with your own personal viewpoint or not. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

The practice is that buying and selling of awards is not permitted here, while exchanges are permitted.

The distinction isn't always 100% clear.

Nevertheless, I do think there is a useful distinction worth making.

The rough guideline seems to be this: commercial enterprises are unwelcome; helping members in need is much welcomed.

So buying and selling isn't permitted. Coupon "brokers" are frowned upon (and shunned by the community, whether their posts are moderated or not). But requests for assistance, offering help in return, are treated differently.

Punki once posted a question that I probably recall incorrectly but I remember as being something like "If I give a family friend, who is a dentist, a gift of a couple of First Class tickets to Paris (perfectly within the rules of the program) and they thank me for this gift by offering to whiten my teeth, is there anything wrong with that?"

Another example: On one occasion I gave my grandparents a couple of F awards to SYD. I know I got a much bigger gift at Christmas as a result. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Would Coupon Connection critics be comfortable as long as there was no ex ante meeting of the minds? (What if I knew I'd be rewarded?)

And I've been known to respond to folks requests for, say, a USAirways upgrade. I get lots of them and can hand them out. And in my response I might say, "do you think you could spare a club pass?" That's a little different, perhaps, than dealing with my grandparents and not explicitly asking for something in return. And one could draw formal differences. But I'm still just trying to help someone out and get personal help in return.

Now, once you provide a forum that allows friends and colleagues to help each other out, lots of things 'slip in'. Any kind of enforcement has to draw certain lines, and the one that has been clearly drawn is that commercial transactions are prohibited but individual non-cash transactions go on.

Some folks tried to start swapping travel awards and coupons for items of 'cash value' and the moderators said that was too close to the commercial line that folks were uncomfortable with. So they do earnestly draw lines.

But FT are not the police, and a hermaneutical approach to the TOS notwithstanding, I think that anyone spending time is the forum can discern the social norms that prevail there.

Any travel company is of course free to browse the Coupon Connection forum and 'take names' and try to bust members for violating the rules.

But as long as the members are staying away from trying to 'profit' and are simply trying to make enhance each others' travel, I think that at least a plurality of the community will be unsympathetic to such tactics.

I'm pretty sure you're overreading.

Running afoul of a program T&C does not necessarily mean fraud (direct or otherwise).

Fraud generally involves willful misrepresentation. This often involves making a false statement. Many statutes also include material gain as a condition. Coupon brokers could easily be committing fraud, while friendly exchanges might not be.

Definitions also generally distinguish between fraud and abuse. A T&C violation may abuse the rules without being fraudulent.

All of this aside, the presence of a word in FT's TOS, and weilding that word like a hammer, seems to be to be trying to do more with the document than it is intended for.

"Is a given post community-enhancing or community-destroying?" seems a more useful rubric.

I wonder if Starwood Lurker only "gives his opinion" here or what else he/possible support staff would do.

Based on Starwood Lurker's assertion that the exchange referenced by him above is fraud, would he/possible support staff not be inclined to find out who the poster in question is and take action, at least within their own program (deletion of account, etc.)?

Sometimes it would not be hard to do this, e.g., if people reveal an e-mail address that is also in their profile for their account at Starwood.

Starwood Lurker, let me ask you directly, would you/possible support staff do this?

If yes, what would be the perceived severity of the "offense" from which you would consider this? If you say the exchange proposed in the thread referenced above is fraud, would you not HAVE TO take action in order to preserve your loyalty to your employer?

Finally, has there already been an instance where you have taken action against a Flyertalk member based on information you have gathered here so far?