An offer to sell miles
 

In this LH forum

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum32/HTML/003492.html

Someone has offered to sell 100K mileage packages, which violates the TOS. Can someone please close the thread. Thank you.

It looks like the LH forum's moderator has already addressed the issue. Thanks, Patron!

Good to see such overt selling getting sprung. HOWEVER the link above clearly has the original poster's email address and more importantly gist of his message is still there in Canarsie's quote of his post. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Might be prudent for Patron to edit that out too? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif


------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

Thank's for your heads up, ozstamps, I did as requested.

I was going to suggest that, as I of course could not do it myself since the thread was locked, but the task is already done.

I have been wondering to myself what compelled me to even quoted that entire post, including the Internet address.

Thank you, ozstamps and Patron.

[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

Then obviously, there is a double-standard or a misunderstanding in how these things are or should be addressed among the moderators themselves. Example?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/012104.html

Anyone care to comment?

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

In the thread you reference I find no offer to sell/buy miles/points/awards for cash, rather an exchange.

The practices of the Coupon Connection are addressed in the Coupon Connection FAQ, which is prefaced by Randy Petersen's statement "If visiting or exchanging items here, we strongly suggest to read this most excellent guide to this particular forum...."

There have been a number of threads in the last year or two on the general topic you are raising in the Only Randy Petersen forum.

Chuck
aka cblaisd
Moderator, Coupon Connection

Thanks for the explanation; however, the TOS says this:

"Condoning of Illegal Activity

Posts that condone illegal activity (i.e., buying and selling of awards, direct fraud upon any program) will be removed without notice and accounts subject to deletion! We're not the law, but we know where they are."

I am pretty sure that if something violates the Terms and Conditions of a program - hotel or otherwise - then it could be considered direct fraud upon any program.

Then again I also consider it fraudulent to try and gain from something for which you were never intended. No doubt others will disagree. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

Without checking the link I repeat my assertion that starwood lurker is here for his and starwood's best interest - to heck with FT.

You should resign your position on talkboard as you obviously have no interest in the spirit of FT, only protecting your employer. It is attitudes like yours which make me shun your properties.

The "spirit" of Flyertalk is not to commit program fraud and violations.

Now hold on a minute. That's not fair.

While I grant you, Starwood Lurker works for *wood, I'd expect him to 'look out' for his company. Since the pros and cons of this have been discussed multiple times ... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif I won't re-hash it.

Many Many times over the years, Starwood Lurker has been here for many of us. Lots of problems have been solved quickly. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

While there appears to be a conflict re Starwood representation on Talk Board (a topic for Talk Board), we need to discussion William on the merits http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
There are 2 Williams here. One who represents *wood; and the other William ... a Flyertalker!

Thanks. I take it then that you are one of those who disagree. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

That's the lovely thing about Flyertalk, isn't it? Everyone who is a registered user gets to state their point of view, whether it agrees with your own personal viewpoint or not. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

The practice is that buying and selling of awards is not permitted here, while exchanges are permitted.

The distinction isn't always 100% clear.

Nevertheless, I do think there is a useful distinction worth making.

The rough guideline seems to be this: commercial enterprises are unwelcome; helping members in need is much welcomed.

So buying and selling isn't permitted. Coupon "brokers" are frowned upon (and shunned by the community, whether their posts are moderated or not). But requests for assistance, offering help in return, are treated differently.

Punki once posted a question that I probably recall incorrectly but I remember as being something like "If I give a family friend, who is a dentist, a gift of a couple of First Class tickets to Paris (perfectly within the rules of the program) and they thank me for this gift by offering to whiten my teeth, is there anything wrong with that?"

Another example: On one occasion I gave my grandparents a couple of F awards to SYD. I know I got a much bigger gift at Christmas as a result. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Would Coupon Connection critics be comfortable as long as there was no ex ante meeting of the minds? (What if I knew I'd be rewarded?)

And I've been known to respond to folks requests for, say, a USAirways upgrade. I get lots of them and can hand them out. And in my response I might say, "do you think you could spare a club pass?" That's a little different, perhaps, than dealing with my grandparents and not explicitly asking for something in return. And one could draw formal differences. But I'm still just trying to help someone out and get personal help in return.

Now, once you provide a forum that allows friends and colleagues to help each other out, lots of things 'slip in'. Any kind of enforcement has to draw certain lines, and the one that has been clearly drawn is that commercial transactions are prohibited but individual non-cash transactions go on.

Some folks tried to start swapping travel awards and coupons for items of 'cash value' and the moderators said that was too close to the commercial line that folks were uncomfortable with. So they do earnestly draw lines.

But FT are not the police, and a hermaneutical approach to the TOS notwithstanding, I think that anyone spending time is the forum can discern the social norms that prevail there.

Any travel company is of course free to browse the Coupon Connection forum and 'take names' and try to bust members for violating the rules.

But as long as the members are staying away from trying to 'profit' and are simply trying to make enhance each others' travel, I think that at least a plurality of the community will be unsympathetic to such tactics.

I'm pretty sure you're overreading.

Running afoul of a program T&C does not necessarily mean fraud (direct or otherwise).

Fraud generally involves willful misrepresentation. This often involves making a false statement. Many statutes also include material gain as a condition. Coupon brokers could easily be committing fraud, while friendly exchanges might not be.

Definitions also generally distinguish between fraud and abuse. A T&C violation may abuse the rules without being fraudulent.

All of this aside, the presence of a word in FT's TOS, and weilding that word like a hammer, seems to be to be trying to do more with the document than it is intended for.

"Is a given post community-enhancing or community-destroying?" seems a more useful rubric.

I wonder if Starwood Lurker only "gives his opinion" here or what else he/possible support staff would do.

Based on Starwood Lurker's assertion that the exchange referenced by him above is fraud, would he/possible support staff not be inclined to find out who the poster in question is and take action, at least within their own program (deletion of account, etc.)?

Sometimes it would not be hard to do this, e.g., if people reveal an e-mail address that is also in their profile for their account at Starwood.

Starwood Lurker, let me ask you directly, would you/possible support staff do this?

If yes, what would be the perceived severity of the "offense" from which you would consider this? If you say the exchange proposed in the thread referenced above is fraud, would you not HAVE TO take action in order to preserve your loyalty to your employer?

Finally, has there already been an instance where you have taken action against a Flyertalk member based on information you have gathered here so far?

Now that you're back, Starwood Lurker, perhaps you could drop into this thread, and put one fire out before starting another? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Wingnut (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

The user id is fitting. I plead the fifth. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

Well, that's the easy way out.

Sorry if you missed this on that thread; however, it still applies:

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

So it is true that politicians feel no need to talk and respond to their voters after the election is over? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I don't know. You'd have to ask a politician. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

The decision is in Randy's capable hands. When he is ready, he will speak his mind. And, whatever that decision is, I will be able to live with, even if it goes against what I feel are in everyone's best interests.

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

I'm sorry, Starwood Lurker but I don't really think that's good enough.

I usually try to stay out of the "politics" of FT because IJAFBB and all that, but then the powers that be decided to have elections, and you decided to stand, and I decided to vote (for you, as it happens). So to think that the only people you need to discuss your point of view and motives with are the handful which comprise the moderators of the forum, the board admin and Randy, while ignoring the thousands whose votes you solicited just isn't on.

I have no axe to grind. I'm not a Starwood guy (a good proportion of my travel is in the UK and you simply don't have enough properties here). But your presence on the Starwood board, and the level of service and attention you give to the posters there, would be enough to make me switch to Starwood were I US based. As someone who's never stayed in a Starwood property, the only impression of your company's brand I have is through you.

And something like this ruins all the good work you do.

I don't think there's some sinister plot afoot. I imagine you noticed the thread and you let your IT guys know that they should have sorted the registration process at their end (as no doubt you've told them countless times before). You were probably about to go away, you may have thought "I don't want to come back and find that thousands of posters are whinging about not being able to sign up for this" so you quickly emailed FT admin and asked them to remove the link.

If that's close to what happened, for my money only very the last bit was a mistake (and a very minor one at that). And I guess from the proliferation of smilies in your recent posts that you may realise that.

The big mistake is in not saying "I made a mistake, I'm sorry, I won't do it again." And that's the mistake that undermines your work.

If all the preceeding hypothesis is wildly mistaken, then I apologise. But if you won't tell us your point of view or your motives, then what else should we think?

I think expressing my motives to Randy is quite enough. I am willing to accept whatever he decides. Aren't you? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Besides I do not think my asking for assistance was a mistake, but there is no explaining that will suffice for that apparently. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Starwood Lurker (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

Couldn't agree more with your second statement. Couldn't disagree more with your first.

Well, "no explaining" certainly does seem to be your policy.

[This message has been edited by Wingnut (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Again, I explained to the moderators of the Starwood forum, to the Flyertalk admin, and to Randy himself. Why? Because they were the people who had the authority to act on a request. And, you know, that's all it was...a request. It could have been denied and I would be just as satisfied with their explanation of why they couldn't do that. But, no, it was one simple request that got fulfilled to chagrin of many posting to this forum. Why? I don't know. Maybe they - the moderator who acted, the admin who acted, and Randy himself - all agreed that it was a reasonable request. Will I continue to get such requests acted upon? How do I know? We are all still waiting for Randy to decide on that.

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]

You often say "just an opinion", "I can express my opinion just like ozstamps does", etc.

However, that is just not true. You are not just any ordinary poster, you represent a large company here that apparently now thinks that its interests are more than once or twice different from the interests of posters on this board. Furthermore, you are a member of the Talkboard. Therefore, your opinions and actions obviously - and you know that and use that - have a different weight than those of regular posters.

Therefore, you are sort of a "public figure" on this board and you will have to live with people discussing your actions and motives here, as long as Randy does not prohibit that.

Since you are a "public figure" here, it is very legitimate that people on this board - and even more the ones who voted for you - ask for an explanation if you take certain actions and express certain viewpoints.

Why would you be afraid of discussing your viewpoints with the people who voted for you?

Furthermore, you are using this board to further your company's interest. I am not discounting the fact that you, as far as I know, have also helped many posters here (which should also be in your company's interest anyway). Thereby you managed to build a very good reputation with the people here on this board, which led to you being elected.

I am not sure if you realize that you are on the verge of losing a good bit of the goodwill you built here - this is at least my impression. You will have to judge for yourself if that is in your company's interest. Your company had their motives for sending a customer service representative in here, and I assume that they feel they have been benefiting from the good reputation you built here. I am not sure if that benefit would be the same if the excellent reputation of their representative here were not exactly the same anymore with many users.

With regards to the questions of posting links to promotions and with friendly exchanges of awards between online buddies to help each other out, like with everything else here, this is Randy's board and he can set it up and make the rules and be advised by whom he pleases.

However, regardless of Randy's decision in this matter, I am just not sure if you realize how your "I talk to Randy, I don't have to explain myself to you guys" attitude is being received here.

Good luck.

Ok folks... honestly... have we not gone in enough circles about this yet? Lurker, along with the rest of us are awaiting Randy's word. At that point, then people can complain (either in Randy's direction or some other direction of thier choosing). Until then, all possible things thinkable regarding this subject seem to have been covered on either one of these two (three if you include Talkboard) threads. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Thanks. More reason than ever to plead the fifth, if you ask me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Honestly, I really think the response to all this has been super-hyperbolic if not downright irrational. Maybe it's time to retire as the Starwood Lurker and just leave Flyertalk altogether. When someone is dealt as heavy a hand as you suggest, there is no safe haven.

Goodnight and good luck to all.

Sincerely,

William R. Sanders
Customer Service Coordinator
Starwood Preferred Services

[email protected]



[This message has been edited by Starwood Lurker (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

Don't disagree with you there!

Very much disagree with you here!

Don't forget how many people appreciate all the help you've given over in the Starwood forum - they far outnumber anything in these forums.

Sounds like you have decided to take your toys and leave the sandbox. If that is what I am reading, goodbye.

And the bit about the heavy hand is only because you refuse to answer questions here and continually say I have taken it up with Randy. Guess what, he is not asking you the questions, we are and would like the courtesy of a reply - something you refuse to do.

Well, I surely don't want to share any responsibility in any way for that.

What I am saying is not even that I personally feel like some here that because of these two issues the board is in big trouble, because it might all just be a storm in a tea cup.

I am merely trying to make you aware that, in my opinion, you completely underestimate the potential backlash from the above mentioned attitude.

The saddest post to read on the entire thread IMO.

Reading pretty clearly between the lines - this might occur again and again?

I had ageed with gleff's comment here only a few days back

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../000867-2.html

nice, you don't check the link but feel you can spout off about it http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Way out of line. I complained in the Air Canada forum about the Hilton Gold offer:

I'm not directing this at any one person, but as a whole we are here to maximize FF programs not screw them them out of everything we can.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../011373-3.html

Does this mean that I work for Hilton? Ultimately it got put in the talkmail letter so Randy might not have had a problem with it.

On the same grounds that I am allowed to express my opinion why is Lurker not allowed to in other forums? Should he have to stay in the Starwood forum and never venture out?

Maybe you haven't heard but Lurker has been known to take trips and max out miles where he can. Sounds like the spirit of FT to me.


Is that a personal attack?

I can't say for sure if Luker should step down from Talkboard. Personally I don't care. Lurker has always been unbiased in view in the Starwood board and he has done nothing to prove to me that in any other forum I have seen him in.

I guess for me it boils down to credibility, and William has lots of it with me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

[This message has been edited by cattle (edited Dec 03, 2003).]

Why does he have to answer to you if he has asked his boss a question? We might vote on FT but Randy is the ultimate owner and boss and the buck stops with him, not you the last time I checked.

I think this is very close to dispositive, but I'd like to add the following.

The distinction here seems to me to be between fraud and breach of contract. Fraud is criminal. Breach of contract is civil. We don't throw people in jail for breach of contract.

Affinity programs would love for you to believe that mere breach of contract is criminal. It is not. Programs are free to craft clauses into their contracts "punishing" people for breaching the contract - say by selling miles. However, the mere selling of miles is simply breach of contract, and certainly is not fraudulent. As previously stated, a fraudluent activity requires a willful misrepresentation, an intent to deceive. For example, sending in falsified boarding passes to get mileage credit.

Society draws a very firm line between breach of contract and fraud in our refusal to make breach of contract criminal. To me, that says something: let private contracts be private contracts, let the parties to them impose penalties against each other as they may so agree, but don't let society intervene of its own accord, on behalf of itself, to judge the party who may be in breach.

By disallowing speech related to fraudulent activity, FlyerTalk is helping to encourage people to abide by rules imposed generally by society. By taking this so far as to prohibit speech related to breach of contract seems to me to be sticking FlyerTalk's head right in the middle of something private between private parties. If society stays out of it (unless invited in to adjudicate a private dispute by one of the parties themselves), I think FlyerTalk should stay out of it, too.

I think you have to recognize that Randy's silence in the face of this "super-hyperbolic if not downright irrational" discussion might be of some significance.

Obviously, he knows what's going on, and we haven't heard a "hey, stop it" from him, even though he seems to be posting a bunch lately.

I forget who just wrote this, but the idea was that FT gets by on Randy-policing and member-policing. This is how we member-police. If you're going to hold an ideological position counter to what 99% of us wish for FT, you're gonna get criticized - deal with it.

As I am on the road and on a tight schedule, I only like to take the liberty to add my observations in brief:

Mr. Lurker,

thanks for your helpful posts in the Starwood forum but please refrain from posting the way you did in the Hilton points offer. That is not your business, neither is it mine! You were voted onto the Talkboard because of the helpful information, not the enforcement of the policies of hotel programs. BTW. Lakers beat the Spurs again last night! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I really wasn't going to post on this thread any more, but a couple of points:

This whole "I don't need to explain myself to anyone but Randy" line just doesn't cut the mustard, and you know it. In this very thread you asked for an explanation of Coupon Connection moderating, and along came Chuck and explained. He didn't say "I explain myself to Randy and not mere mortals like you so yah boo sucks." He turned up and explained his point of view and his motives. You then thanked him for his explanation. You understood why he did something, even if you may have thought (and indeed may still think) that he's wrong. Remember how warm and fuzzy you felt back then, when he took the time to do that? That's all we're asking for here.

You have understood that "the response" is not so much to do with what actually happened but much more a result of your failure to discuss it, haven't you?

Don't be so ridiculous. That's just a cheap shot to try and get some sympathy. If you don't want to have to explain yourself, then maybe you should leave Talkboard (although I do think that us "regular" posters have a duty to the community to explain, if asked, why we post in the way we do).

[This message has been edited by Wingnut (edited Dec 04, 2003).]

Very good examples. As long as a trade is not for the commercial benefit of any party involved it should be allowed. Certainly awards have a cash value IMO, but they are transferable, so nothing wrong with this and if the other party is so grateful that it wants to reward the gifter in any way - except for real cash, all within the rules and policies! - It should be allowed!