Enough is enough - Trolling and personal attacks seem to be allowed on FT
 

Randy,

For several months now FT member Avek00 has been participating in the United board offering a view that clashes with several of the regular posters there. Regardless of whether or not I agree with his points of view I am amazed that today saw the birth of yet another gang attack on him. Several users (it's always the same) feel the need to question his posts, his age and his credibility. They build their complaints on his age, but I don't know whats worse, a young member with a "twisted" point of view or grown ups with behaviour like this.

I know that the moderators on United have their hands full moderating these threads but I feel that enough is enough.

The moderators have already made it clear that regardless of someones opinions, if it complies with the FT TOS that person is allowed to post. I'd like to ask you to look into these threads and come up with a solution, it's bad for the United board and as the problem is all over FT I also feel it's bad for FT. If Avek posts in the AA board the "gang" is there in a matter of minutes ready to attack him.

The FT TOS prohibits personal attacks, as these attacks have been going on for several months now to me it looks like the TOS is worthless if it's not upheld.

FT should allow free speech but sadly it might also be a solution for Avek to stop posting there for some time.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../019519-2.html

Enough is enough. Those that don't stick to the TOS should take their timeout, those that TROLL on purpose should cease doing so.

Thank you, Scott.

I'd also invite Randy to email the moderators re this for some thoughts if he wishes.

FYI, I have closed the thread you referenced.

Chuck
aka cblaisd

Not only did Scott hit the nail right on the head, but the problem is much deeper than the constant personal attacks on Avek.

There is a "Clique" here within FT that seems to think that they are "Better" than everyone else. They critisize the layout of the forums, they critisize the moderation and they critisize any memebr who "dares" to contradict them.

At what point do we stop referring to these people as "Valued" members and see them for what they are?

As someone who doesn't have 10,000 or 5,000 or even 1,000 post it seems like a few of those who evidently do, feel that this somehow makes their post and ideas much more valuable then those who don't. Unfortunately it's just a few people but it seems to cut down on the number of post from those that probably have a lot more real information to offer but don't because of these few elitist who have appointed themselves judge of what's valuable to others. I don't know how you control it other than maybe a discreet e-mail from Randy asking them to be a little more tolerant and pointing out that they once didn't have the prescribed number of post. Another option would be to only count the number of post during the past 12 months

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"A day without Points/Miles is like a day without SUNSHINE"

Cameraguy I agree completely. Newcomers to the AC Forum are attacked by the old guard if they challenge of the status quo. It is not a pretyy site. Unfortunately the forum is unmoderated so their attacks go unchecked... it has driven away a few posters in the past, and limits what others, like myself, want to get involved in. Yes I agree with freedom of speech, but there has to be limits.
(Edited because some days I just can't spell)

[This message has been edited by whyyzman (edited 05-15-2003).]

There is a "Clique" here within FT that seems to think that they are "Better" than everyone else.

there are serveral cliques here.
* one got finally rid of 'doc'
* another one is probably the official TalkBoard, keeping more or less everything secret (not informing the FT 'public' about their findings/recommendations
* FT oldies (I am one of those ...)
* etc. etc. etc.

I don't think that being a member of one or several cliques is, by itself, a problem - it is the negativ effects/posts of individiual members (by far not all) of such a clique, directed against non-clique members/-individuals/-groups, that should (be) stop (ped).

ZERO for President, I guess.

Perhaps a bit off point, but whatever DID happen to "doc"? His posts were everywhere, about everything.

I offer a counter point of view. Avek00 does seem to troll quite a bit. He is very quick to point his doomsayer philosophies about any airline other than his beloved CO and also to gloat when frequent flyer benefits are lost.

He invoked the wrath of the UA folks when he had the gall to call the private 1K line (to which he should not have access) and congratulate them on the "good business move" of restricting the use of SWUs. And despite his admission that he hasn't set foot on a UA plane in the past couple of years, he seems to spend hours in the UA forum giving his "constructive" input to the threads.

I don't agree that the personal attacks should be allowed but many members have hit wits end at the endless trolling by him. He seems to go out of his way to invite these types of attacks and then actively participate in them.

TG, I agree, which is why the title of my post is about trolling AND personal attacks.

Sadly Avek is FREE to post whatever he feels like on FT, as long as it's not a personal attack etc... But OTOH as much as people may be annoyed by it the personal attacks ARE NOT allowed yet they do seem to be tolerated.

The whole 1K line thing WAS indeed pretty low, but to constantly bring it up is too harsh, it's not like Aveks single call prevented the new SWU rules from being implemented.

[This message has been edited by ScottC (edited 05-15-2003).]

Very thoughtful posts throughout this thread.

I personally, see some of his posts and quotes on the verge of trolling. BUT, I respect and admire people who can stand up and articulate a well positioned argument on either side of the coin. Not everyone can post their feelings, especially if they are in the minority and beaten down because of it.

Back to scott's point about the Personal Attacks being allowed, I feel that this is happening b/c avek's posts are in the minority of what people believe and what they want to hear. This is unfortunate. It's tough to go against the majority.

Again, go back to the good ol FT Mantra, "Challenge a person's ideas and thoughts... not the person" I think this has been lost in arguments against avek. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

while recently I tried (in vain) to defend avek against some attacks, I didn't appreciate this post at all and decided to just 'avoid' him in future. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../000725-3.html

techgirl,

I agree that some of what avek posts is borderline trolling, but that in itself does not justify the contstant attacks.

As for the sentiment that he is not welcome to post due to not flying UA. Some of the very same people who are looking to run him out of the UA forum for that reason have defended other members rights to post wherever they see fit.

It all boils down to the "Clique" and how they treat people here on FT. If you are one of the "Drinking Buddie's" or one of their favorites, you can do no wrong. If not, you are not welcome.

Exactly.

I agree, the certain UA people can be mean. I found out about the UA SWU changes months before they happened and posted a warning. While most were appreciative one or two people were so into crapping on me that the point was lost. Sigh.

As chexfan pointed out so succintly, attack the argument as hard as you like, but not the person.

No matter how much of a "troll" someone may appear to be, they don't deserve personal attacks.

The best way to reduce such "trolling" is to ignore the "troll" - deprive them of FT oxygen - and eventually they may realise the way to acceptance at FT is by active and useful participation.

I for one do not think it is the post count that matters and rarely look over at the number of posts of a poster.
To paraphrase Randy "you are only as good as your last post."
If memory serves me correctly quite a number of high posters have been given a time-out.
Many times people post things that I disagree with and for the most part if I have nothing good to say than I say nothing. I did say for the most part because once in a while (about as often as an eclipse) I post something that I wished that I had not.
Really think that chexfan has got it right on this one.

I agree 100%. I rarely share avek00's opinions, but he has a right to express them without being attacked.

For that matter, I rarely share chexfan's opinions, but I'm with him on this issue! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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Vasant

But my opinion is the same as Chexfans, why are you not with me? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Of course I'm with you, ScottC http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif, but that is not a rare event since I usually agree with your take on things.

A small quibble: If people think that someone is trolling, the best response is no response. I don't think a case can be made to prevent or discourage avek00 from posting. BTW, I have repeatedly made this point in the appropriate fora. I think it's a shame that fonseca33 seems to have been chased away from FT. Fortunately (some may say unfortunately), avek00 is not easily intimidated.

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Vasant

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

It's all about being a cool kid on your block! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Firstly ScottC .... if you read the thread again you reference you might indeed find that some of those are folks who have not generally posted anti-Avek comments before AFAIK. He is simply driving MOST folks on the UA board nuts is probably the short answer. If you do some quick checks, it is not one poster, or a dozen, but FIFTY or more who now make such comments.

I can only agree with techgirl above:

I can name, but will not for obvious reasons, two VERY valuable and respected and KNOWLEDGEABLE United Forum members who not longer post - entirely due to this person wreaking on-going havoc in the Forum over the past 6 - 9 months, and the fact no-one has clipped his wings and asked him to cut the flame-bait posts.

Secondly - for anyone terming someone only a "borderline Troll" who posts true gems like these below ... well all I can say is - you are entitled to your opinion - and the fact you seldom post in the UA forum is clearly self evident. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/017252.html

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/019159.html

Thirdly - avek00 posted himself he is 19 or 20 - so he IS young. He posted it, not anyone else, so one imagines it is factual. If folks "assumed" he was a kid it might be different as they could well be wrong. But they are not. He has attended at least one FT gathering, and the widely posted photos from that event clearly show he is a young FlyerTalker - so what?

Fourthly - avek00 has cheerfully admitted on the board he has not flown UA for years. He is a silver One Pass member he claims, and one imagines his comments might be far more pertinent on the CO board. I read here avek00 has been getting the same reception on the AA boards recently as ScottC mentions above. I almost never read AA so cannot verify that. However assuming that is is correct maybe the problem really is in the fact this person goes LOOKING for trouble and angry responses? <IMG SRC="http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ideasmilie.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ideasmilie.gif">

Not flying UA for years should NOT preclude him from posting on the UA board, but posting THAT kind of stuff linked above (and 50 other similar threads) is simply asking for trouble. Neither thread was on-topic or relevant to the UA forum, and neither added to my knowledge of UA. How about anyone else here? In BOTH cases Scott's argument that OTHERS caused the ensuing problem is nonsense I respectfully submit.

avek00 by his thread starting and 1st post respectively did exactly that.

As techgirl has mentioned it, I also agree his admission phoning the private 1K line he should not have had and certainly not have used - under false pretenses to CONGRATULATE United on their new SWU policy was flame bait - pure and simple.

Worse than that - as the Elite agent thanked avek00 and said his comments would be passed on to the Brass - it may have misled United into feeling true 1Ks WERE indeed pleased with the changes - and clearly few were. We all know one positive comment often balances out 100 negatives. Anyone who POSTED that info as he did, and then wonders why he is not popular with folks who really DO fly heavily on United ...................

cblaisd posts above, and as a UA moderator has the very un-enviable job of trying to balance the comments from both sides.

If folks who do not fly an airline restrict their posts to threads they might reasonably know something about, or can add useful FACTUAL input to, I suspect no-one has a problem. avek00 is not always in that category .... IMO.

If avek00 had a Post-It note on his screen saying: "Are you adding a useful and relevant and FACTUAL comment about United when you hit submit, or are you simply hoping and planning to cause a riot?" - it would be a very useful Post-It note.

There is no denying he does at times have interesting and specific FACTS to post, but they get swamped by the flame-bait ones IMO. I for one would like to see him try and restrict himself to the former. And I would be delighted to applaud him if a consistent pattern of that emerged. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 05-16-2003).]

Am I the only one who finds it truly bizarre that avek00 is the #1 cause of locked threads on the United board, somehow the moderators always find a way to blame everyone but avek?

Yes, there are personal attacks, mostly undeserved. But as I've said very often, Avek's posts are there purely to inflame - They are not any more of an "opinion" than some members' opinion that he is pure 100% troll material. It is to me amazing that the UA moderators continously protect his right to troll but act shocked that people might react.

As I posted in another thread, there's delivering a contrarian point of view/opinion, and then there's standing on your bed in your pajamas screaming "neener neener neener" like avek00 so often does. It makes this board looks unprofessional much more than people telling him to finally take a hike.

Of course, his behavior isn't limited to the UA board. When AA was teetering, his participation on the AA board suddenly sky rocketed with incomplete/old wire articles that were, of course, telling a more negative story than was true at any given point in time. Once that matter settled, he went away again. Shocking, isn't it?

There will always be a certain odd-lettered "clique" to defend him, so be it. I think the best way to solve it all is to implement a "block poster"/ignore list functionality. In the end, this would solve the avek problem in two ways - One, people like me wouldn't need to hear his drivel. Two, the lack of attention, which is really in the end all he is craving, would make him go away anyhow.

There's a difference between defending someone, and arguing that personal attacks (and trolling) should not be tolerated. ScottC argues that both should be addressed, and I happen to agree.

The trolling/flame baiting is very much a two-way street however. His extremely long "defense" notwithstanding, ozstamps has posted plenty of flames/flame baits including in threads where avek had not posted.

For ozstamps to complain that avek chased away valuable members really takes the cake in the irony/clueless department, given his own history on FT and the UA board. What's next -- Bill Clinton lecturing the country on adultery? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

To even suggest that avek might be responsible for the SWU changes (1 positive response over 100 negative ones!) is a) beyond retarded and b) ignores the fact that there were actual 1Ks who agreed with the changes. While the sanctity of the UA elite line may indeed have been violated, http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif let's not blow this thing out of proportion.

Avek00 is and has been a problem poster on both the UA and AA board. I read post in which I disagree all the time. That is okay with me and sometimes I feel that I gain something from these posts. I learn about anothers prospective and the questions and answers that come from a healthy debate.

I gain no such prospective from Avek. He does not engage in debate. He seems to just make stuff up as he goes. One day he never flys UA, the next he has experience with UA personnel. His post are inflamitory to me and it seems other most of the time. It seems that his sole purpose is to inflame other members. The reason I say this is first I and many others are in fact inflamed by his posts. Second, when I have tried to engage him in debate and questioned his opinions, "facts", or motives he simply cries that he is being attacked and I am not allowed to do that.

This has reach a level of "yelling fire in a crowded theatre." I believe in free speach and love the information and community spirit that is flytalk.com. Avek is not posting with in the furtherence of flyertalk.com. He may not even realize this. I agree we need help with this issue. Thank you for your attention to this problem if possible.

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dallasflyer

WOW

I guess now it is OK for people who do not regularly fly an airline to be chased out of a forum!

At least one of the people critisizing avek for his posts in UA has in the past defended other member(s) who reaked havoc in the CO and NW forums. avek does not fly UA, the other member did not fly NW/CO.

What's the difference?

It all boils down to the clique.

PERIOD

Excellent point!


ROTFLMAO!

Perfectly said.

Not what I suggested at all. Please reread my original post.

I think that it is flamebaiting for a non-1K to call (or allegedly call) the 1K line about an unpopular change and then repeatedly comment on it.

You're not the only one Axey, I agree with you 100%.

As I've said, trolling and making false posts are violaions of FT's standards. In the first cross-thread posted on this thread, in the first one cited by ScottC, Avek was caught in a bald-faced lie. A lie that was posted to further his trolling agenda, I might add. The moderator's response? Close the thread.

Since he admits he hasn't flown UA in "many years," the simplest solution is to ban Avek from posting in the United forum, period. His trolling IS disruptive.

I am not trying to get rid of Avek. I am hoping that Randy can get Avek to realize that he needs to more carefully consider what he says before posting. It is just a socialization thing. I post things at times which are unpopular, I take time to carefully consider my words as they have effects on people. You have people in the UA and AA forums which feel strongly about the airline that they fly and they live with that airline everyday. Then you have someone come in a make things up, I think lie about things, and give out opinions which are basically mean without a basis in fact or experience. This equates to rude behavior in a public place. Randy or Moderators really are the only ones that can do anything about it. Yes we can just ignore it. But time after time it becomes very difficult to ignore someone who is exhibitng harrassing behavior while you are trying to conduct an intersting and serious discussion in a public forum. This would be true if it were live chat, a face to face discussion with a group of people or on a bullitin board such at FT. I am hoping that Avek's behaviour becomes modified to the good. I think a great example of Randy's ability to modify a posters behavior is Ozstamps. If you check my former posts, I had some bitter comments about his posts, in the last few months the tone and contents of his posts have changed and so the good information and his intent have shone through. Hopefully this can also be accomplished with Avek.

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dallasflyer

OK, I'm somewhat of a new guy on the block here, but I feel compelled to toss in my 2c on avek00's posts. On more than one occasion, I've seen this individual post extremely inflammatory responses and pointless original threads that serve no purpose other than to evoke anger in response (which he's been quite good at).

That this individual has little factual knowledge of commercial aviation is evident, but what is more despicable is that the posts serve no purpose other than to promote negativity and inflame. IMHO, I have yet to see a post from him that has any merit whatsoever; while it's fine to have a "take" that goes against the grain, most of these opinions are foolish, provocative, negative and unhelpful. Perfectly useful threads have had their tone completely reversed from positive to absolute garbage by one stroke of this guy's enter key.

Be that as it may, on the other side of the coin, we are all adults and can choose our responses. Yep, I've been sucked in a few times and shot back some barbs based upon the emotions that this person has stirred up in me, but I'm going to try and discontinue this practice. Nothing that we do is going to stop this person from having and posting his opinion (short of being banned for expressing an opinion or opinions that most may find inflammatory, which, IMHO, is wrong).

I would agree that ignoring these foolish posts may serve some purpose in the future, but it's my guess that repeated written disapproval by the FT community toward the negativity expressed by avek00 (gadflies seem to actually enjoy personal attacks, feeding their desire to continue) will eventually force him to move on.

Well, I honestly thought it was a gang, until I read many of the replies in this thread, including those that normally stay out of attacks on Avek, it DOES seem to be a more widespread problem than I thought…

Have no clue about the AA board, but I really believe the feeling of many above is held by a LOT more on the UA board than ever post on the threads.

I get emails from some pretty conservative folks agreeing with posts I have made. Others who post may receive the same feedback - I can't speak for them.

There are some good suggestions above that may resolve the issue somewhat.

edited for better judgement

[This message has been edited by chexfan (edited 05-16-2003).]

All of us need to take a lesson from the statement above, sometimes. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Any of you who may have participated on the Plane Business BB (as I did), before Holly Hegeman closed it down a couple of years ago, will recall how much of a troll Avek00 was on the TWA board during the pre- and post-bankruptcy period leading to the AA takeover. He claimed to be an investor in TWA stock. His inflammatory remarks, often directed at the airline employees, and always at anyone who defended the airline (either as an employee or as a loyal customer), led to the same acrimony as on this FT board.

I believe it was his use the same “handle” on other BBs that resulted in his being ID’d on the PB board as a very young poster and student (at I seem to recall a school in Georgia). In any case I believe his trolling posts, and the bait TWA loyalists could not resist swallowing, were a major reason for the locking down of the PB board. It was THE favorite venue for dialogue between and among TWA employees and the almost cultish VERY loyal TWA FF affecionados, of which I was one until they sold the international routes to AA.

I’m not an exceptionally active FT poster, but am a daily visitor. I’ve been around long enough to know the alleged ‘cliques’ cited above, and have met many of their alleged clique ‘members’ at DOs in NYC and DUS. I think this is irrelevant to this matter.

However, I agree that this poster IS a big problem; and one causing great concern to many of the most valuable contributors to this board.

Thus I hope Randy will recognize the problem and take appropriate action!

Uh Oh. chexfan giving lessons??? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

All I know is that trolling and personal attacks are driving me away from FT a little bit every day. I used to spend hours daily pouring over threads and absorbing valuable information, now I spend minutes a day glancing at threads and trying to filter good information among personal attacks and misleading info.

While it is against the TOS to mount personal attacks, it is equally wrong to present misleading information, pretend to be an expert on a particular subject matter without anything to back it up, or posting for the pure purpose of inciting heated responses.

I have already more or less withdrew myself from participating in DOs, I never did post that much to begin with, and if a suitable solution cannot be found regarding trolling and personal attacks, I doubt I will be doing much reading in the future either.

Those of us who fly 100,000 miles a year can participate in FT as embedded reporters. Not only are we on the front line, we are directly affected by the actions taken by the airlines and their employees.

avek00 participates in FT like a reporter sitting in the safety of a TV station, albeit probably his dorm room. He is no where near the action and, although he's full of ivory tower opinions, he is safely tucked far away from any consequences his statements -- such as calling the 1K desk -- may have on those of us who spend many days a month in the air.

Maybe it's my own superstition or paranoia, but it is frustrating to have his inflammatory statements floating around cyberspace for the bean counters to read when he is no where near the line of fire for any consequences his statements may precipitate.

I'm neither an old timer nor a clique member; I rely on FT for valuable information and related opinions from those who know what they are talking about -- avek00 clearly contributes neither.

I don't know how this situation should be handled, but I would prefer that avek00 didn't waste my time as I read FT for business reasons more than as a hobby.

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Biggest Little 1K (in The Biggest Little City) In The World