May I preface my remarks by stating that their intent is to help everyone make peace, both within themself and with others. Obviously, I am an imperfect human being and may well blunder my efforts. You may be offended by my lack of polished elegance and you may find it necessary to admonish me for my flaws. If so, to paraphrase JFK Jr., there are worse things to be accused of than (in my own small way) "trying unsuccessfully" to make peace.

I was raised with the constant reminder that many times each day we have to decide whether we choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution and that, most often, trying to be part of the solution is the harder choice, requiring one to battle their own human nature, break away from the pack and stand alone. That is what I must do now.

I feel it is very wrong and unfair to lay the blame for our current problems at the feet of a single individual (other than ourself). I think it is even more wrong to believe that we can change our world for the better by eliminating a person we perceive has a problem or that somehow we are justified in being cruel to him/her just because we believe him/her to be less perfect that we believe ourselves to be.

The only way any of us can change the world for the better is by trying to change ourselves for the better each and every day. Each and every person on these boards who has ever made a cruel or disparaging remark about anyone, or has publicly ridiculed any other member, for any reason, is to that degree part of the problem not part of the solution. It is only when we can see that we are ourselves are less than perfect, that we can see the need to change our own ways and have any hope for personal growth.

We must remove the plank from our own eye before we can help remove the speck from our neighbor's eye.

You may say, "Well the only reason I was rude or hateful to him/her is because he/she was rude and hateful first" but that is simply not true. No one can make us be rude or hateful, or stop us from being rude or hateful, but ourself. We have to make that choice all on our own, no matter what the circumstances in which we find ourself.

When people were rude and hateful to Jesus, Gandhi or Sister Theresa, they rsponded with love and mercy not because the other person was perfect, because they themselves were filled with love and mercy. Most of us will not attain that degree of serenity and goodness in this lifetime, but we can sure keep on trying to get better everyday.

I'll use the analogy of the lemon and the orange.

If you start with a bitter, sour lemon, no matter what you do it, beat it, squash it, pound it, or lovingly peel and massage the juice out of it, you are still going to get bitter, sour lemon juice, because that is all there is inside.

Likewise, no matter how violently you extract the juice from a succulent, sweet orange, we will still get succulent, sweet orange juice, because that is all that there is inside.

Most of us are bitter lemons sometimes and sweet, juicy oranges at others, but we are all sapient beings that have the right to choose which we wish to be.

Can I make the world a better place by uncovering your weakness and shouting them from the rooftops? Can you make the world a better place by discovering mine and posting them all on FlyerTalk?

Are we more sucessful as a community if a stranger arrives amongst us with a flaw (even if we believe it is in some way worse than our own cherished flaws) and we drive him/her away in the same or worse condition as he/she arrived, or are we perhaps a more successful community if we could somehow help that stranger grow stronger while in our midst?

Might I make the world a better place if I see a weakness in you and try to build you up and support you as you struggle to strengthen that portion of your being? What if you see a flaw in me and try to help me overcome it, could that maybe make the world a better place?

I am the first to admit that I have a long, long way to go before I will always be capable of being an instrument of peace in the face of adversity, but I can only hope that I might make the world a slightly better place by continuing to try.



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-03-2001).]

Well said.

I know I have been critical of UpgradeMe and quite possibly others. For that I am sorry.

I take this opportunity to pledge to never flame again. This does not, however, meen I give up the right to be critical in a compasionate way.

I certainly would prefer to be part of the solution. In addition I take up the offer made by Svpii and would like to meet up with some in NY and attempt to come up with some rational ideas to better our community.

TW

Punki,

You certainly have a way with words! I disagree,however,with your "standing alone" statement. I am pleased to stand by you in what you said and I am sure others will also.
We can all get through these rough times.

-RKG

Punki: While I completely admire your sentiments and share your values, we are in a community here that does not necessarily do so. Try as one may, it will not be possible to get everyone to be instuments of peace.

Basically what I get from your post is that to get along in a satisfactory way, we all need to improve our behavior. But much as I would like to sometimes, I cannot change the people around me. Nor is it my job to.

I think it is more of the kind of situation where children are misbehaving on a flight. Whose fault is it - the children's or the parents'? In my opinion, it's the parents' - they need to lay down the law to the children to a certain extent.

And I think that is the point we have reached here. In fact, we reached it long ago.

I've participated on other boards that don't have these problems. Whenever little battles start to flame up, they are extinguished by a person or persons who are watching for conduct that is not in accordance with agreed upon community standards.

It's time for moderators.

Punki,

With all due respect I just don't think you are seeing this with your eyes 100% open. I really feel you desire to live in some world where everyone is hugging? This is just not realistic.

We live in a fast paced information based society now. Specifically to FT...when people disrupt this new virtual world we have built time and time again...all we can do is try to remove the person. If a remedy is not found quickly this is especially true.

You typed: ...just because we believe him/her to be less perfect that we believe ourselves to be

Gosh, nothing can be more from the truth in my eyes. I actually see this as a fault of my own...trusting everyone at 'face' value...until (as happens so often in the 90's and now this decade) I am let down. I view everyone equally on FT...until the give me a reason to trust/respect them more or less. I could actually put everyone on FT on a chart as I 'see' them in my mind. It has nothing to do with being perfect.

Anyway...no disrespect intended as I do applaud your frequent efforts at diplomacy and peacemaking.

Sorry if some of the above thoughts are outta order...in a rush to make some ribs!

Sincerely,

Dorian

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dgolds, whom I deeply admire, care for and respect, writes:

Precisely my point, David, there is no possible way to change others' behavior, but we most certainly can change our own behaviors in response to others' and that is very much our job. Changing our own responses to painful external stimuli can be extremely difficult, I will admit, but it can be done if we try very hard and those who are strong enough to learn to change themself receive one of the greatest gifts of all, power over themself. Hoping that I may someday achieve this goal gives me great joy.

dgolds goes on to say:

On this board, however, we are dealing almost exclusively with adults and again, my point exactly, they will find great joy when they learn to lay down the law to themself.

We could all, BTW, benefit greatly from emulating the behavior of the one real child that I know of who posts on these boards. Those of you who have met TWIZ will know that he is a true gentleman.

Dorian, I can only do my best to keep my eyes so 100% wide open that I can remember to try to be an instrument of peace, even in a world filled with pain and suffering.

You are probably right in that my goal isn't very realistic because I am weak and flawed, but it is exactly my own imperfections that give me hope. If even I can remember to at least keep trying to always respond with love in the face of hate and anger, anybody can do it. We surely won't all succeed all the time, but what a better place this would be if we all kept trying.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-03-2001).]

I have written nothing on these issues,and do not intend to do so after this note. There are many on these boards whose opinions I respect, and from whom I have benefited. Punki, you are among them, and I agree with many of your thoughts.I don't think they are naive or impractical at all. I believe the solution for the community as a whole is to not respond to ad hominem attacks, to simply let them lie there and thus deny them any power to achieve any result at all. While we have no power to control or change others, we do have the power to limit their damage by not responding. I intend to keep on doing that. And I think most of us will, and FT will continue to be a helpful, if not perfect, forum. I think and hope those who are leaving will return, and while flaming will continue on this and other boards, it will die out quicker when it is denied the oxygen of response.

.

Punki: Please see my reply via private e-mail.

Many times the analogy of children has been used in discussing our collective behavior. I do not have the good fortune to have children, but I have many family and friends that do. The following ancedote comes from a visit with one of my closest friends.

My friend has three children. The day I last visited, the older two were in school and the youngest (just under a year) was sleeping. Before the child woke up, the mother said to me "He has figured out how to screech at the top of his lungs. So please just ignore it if he does so, as we are trying to break him of the habit."

Shortly afterwards, the child awakens and the three of us go to lunch. About every fifteen minutes, as I am talking with his mother and his mother is feeding him Cheerios and juice, the child lets out a screech. At first, I thought it was the Cheerios... but then I remembered, remained silent and tried not to smile. His mom didn't flinch, didn't even acknowledge him.

The third time this happened, my friend turned to her child in the middle of her sentence. And with a calm voice that was a distinctively different tone than that she had used for the past hour admonished her son "You are going to have to learn that this is not going to work." Then she looked back at me, finished the sentence, and continued our conversation.

The child didn't screetch for the rest of the afternoon. He did engage his mother for attention several times, but using more conventional approaches. He received what I thought was an appropriate amount of attention each time.

Why have I bored you with this tale?

Punki is right on the mark that we should be peaceful and ignore those who are screetching looking for attention. But that only works if there is a "parent" with authority that is responsible to admonish and reprimand; politely, gracefully, forcefully, but in the end effectively.

We do not have that here, and we wonder why our "children" are so unhappy.

Punki, I have no clue about the, "lets sing Kumbaya" psycho babble. All I know is you are wrong. You state, "I think it is even more wrong to believe that we can change our world for the better by eliminating a person we perceive has a problem or that somehow we are justified in being cruel to him/her just because we believe him/her to be less perfect that we believe ourselves to be. "

I have some names... Hitler, Stalin,etc.

The meek may be blessed... But the tanks roll right over them. Sometimes in life you have to put down the self help books and take a stand for what is right. I know the politically correct crowd will have a fit and take me to task. I respect an honest disagreement/ debate. I however completly disagree with the "let's reason with the bully" approach. Sometimes you have to stand up to the bully EVEN if you get hurt. At least you will have your own self respect. This is like chamberlin and WW1. We have traded Catman and Premex for very tempory peace. And FYI before you go down the theology path... You might take a look at the old testament. God sure had alot of an "eye for an eye" retrabution. David/ golith etc. There is such a thing as a "moral" war. There is a difference in being a peaceful person and standing by during injustice. I view all this "let's all get along" stuff as a sign of cowerdice. We as a community need to unite and say we will not accept certain types of unacceptable behavior. Until we do... you know who will continue to drive away our best members. I wouldn't trade you 10,000 you know whos for ONE PREMEX. But I guess if I read that stupid chicken soup book he'll come back...

This is really a shame to watch. I hate to say it, though, but it is also a natural progression of a group like this. It would be nice if everyone could just get along, like Rodney King wanted. It would also be nice if we had someone with so little of a life that they could spend it watching what the "children" are doing all the time, and making sure that they are not misbehaving. Realistically, neither is practical, or desirable, in my opinion. When everyone "gets along", it usually means that they have the same opinion, which leads to growth stagnation. Moderation can lead to the obvious abuse and tyranny. People in groups like this are generally very passionate people, in all aspects of their lives, but in this case it's flying. In my case, it is traveling. Those who leave were looking for reasons to leave, and are using this as a convenient excuse to do so. But like a drug, many will be back at some other point. I urge all those who do not leave to just ignore the trolls. The trolls have flourished because they have an audience. Remove the audience, and they go away and look for a new audience. And lets get back to what this group is for: The communal exchange of information in order to enhance the wealth of everybody who reads and shares.

Cigarman, while my beliefs on this topic are closer to yours than Punki's and I respect your posts in the past, I'm not sure that the Kumbaya and chicken soup references were among your finest.

I can't believe some of the things I have read. Was there a comparison of the problems here on Flyertalk and the killing of millions of people in the past century? Some of you are taking this much to seriously. Please take some time and re-evaluate the actual problem (s).

Cigarman writes:

With all due respect, Cigarman, it is interesting to note that it was exactly Hilter whom I had in mind as I wrote the post. He was indeed the most famous bully who thought he could change our world for the better by eliminating a person (or millions of persons) he perceived had a problem or that somehow he was justified in being cruel to him/her/them because he believed them to be less perfect than he believed himself to be. Hitler had a great deal of physical power and was highly successful in convincing a whole nation to pledge allegiance to him to make him feel justified in his stands, but IMHO the true root of his problem was that he lacked the tremendous personal courage that it takes to face the most evil bully of all--that which lives within.

If there is, in the end any hope for a peaceful world, we all must and (I hope) will seek the extraordinary bravery that it takes to stand against those behaviors which we find unacceptable with the highest degree of grace and courage to which we have risen at the time.

Beyond that, I honestly don't understand most of the references in your post but would be most willing to discuss them via e-mail should you so desire.

The primary point of my post was that the bully who takes the greatest courage to battle, is the one that lies within.
If I enjoy (if we all enjoy) a small degree of success in waging that war, the world will indeed be a far better place for our effots.


[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-04-2001).]

Punki,
Thank you for a great post. I agree with you 100%. I have been taught to always seek what is the "next right thing" to do in any situation. When I take a second to consider my actions first, it has never been the right thing to attack someone.

As you pointed out, we of FT are adults. I hope I can act as one.