My friend jetsetter made a very intelligent, thoughtful post which was, unfortunately drowned out by "cybernoise" on a faulty thread. I have reposted it in a new thread because I think it is a very interesting topic and I am really interested in others opinions. Hopefully I have found a "noise free" channel.

As previously posted by jetsetter:

"Flyertalk has grown and become very well respected over time. There are many signs of this. I won't mention all of them but a few are:
*Posters to this board are contacted by members of the media for opinions on travel related subjects;
*Executives of loyalty programs recognize Flyertalk, and some have been willing to chat with us on the boards or in chat sessions;
*At the PIP, airlines provided gift bags to attendees?;
*Flyertalk receives a large number of hits, has grown, and receives posts from all around the world;
*etc.
This is all good in a way. We can share ideas, experiences, and information with each other. Consumers become more empowered, and we can compare our experiences with others. Many experiences, for sure. Did you get that unpublished targetted promotion? Do you usually have to pay the change fee? Do you get "double upgraded?"

Yet does this have a darker side, from the perspective of the consumer / frequent flyer? Do the airlines and other programs monitor these boards, and use the vast information we provide them at no cost to take action against agents who do us favors?

There have been many hints of this posibility:
*Someone writes a trip report, and mentions that the airline agent did not collect an upgrade cert on an international trip. Someone then warns them to edit the post.

*Someone starts a thread to talk about experiences they have had at different airline facilities. They mention that certain people waive rules, and certain people are more by the book. They too are warned to edit the post for fear that the "nice agents" will get in trouble.

*How about if a passenger reports that an agent waived the Saturday night stay rule for them?

*What if a passenger reports that a certain hub airline club almost always waives the change fee, where as the club on the adjacent concourse always collects it. Would the airline use this to "correct" the situation? (This has not happened, but its a good hypothetical)
*There was a situation where NW sent out an unmarked post card to get Platinum status. A Flyertalker scanned in the card, and many people faxed it into NW in hopes of that ever ellusive Platinum card. NW called your organization, and a staff member posted that NW would not be honoring these Platinum post cards.

Do you have any inside information as to how the airlines use these boards to close loopholes, and elliminate certain passenger friendly practices which the airlines accountants may frown on? Perhaps there is no way to know the extent that this happens. I mean the airlines don't care about one change fee, or a missed domestic upgrade. But what about those pax who were not asked for an international upgrade coupon? Or the pax who was protected on another airline because they themselves missed a flight on a restricted ticket?

A second question is what should we do about this. We could all stop posting our real world experiences, so that the airline bean counters don't put a stop to some of the few good things people may have. Or we could continue to post and tell each other what really happens, but never know if we are shooting ourselves and those agents that help us in the foot?

These questions seem to apply more to airlines rather than other kinds of loyalty programs. E.g. more discretionary situations seem to involve flights, rather than hotels, credit cards, etc. I'm interested in both Randy's opinion, as well as other posters to this board."

Perhaps the answer is that we must be vague in our reports and accounts. Perhaps not mentioning cities, airline, flight#, etc. But the more we do this, the less helpful the board is to other travelers and the programs alike.

In response to jetsetter's intelligent post, Rudi, in his typical erudite manner, responded:

"well,

whenever I did doubt if the/my information, in the long run, could harm FlyerTalkers interests more then help, then I just gave a 'harmless hint' on the board and the details then were exchanged by private emails (example LH loophole) and in person at FlyerTalkers get-togethers.

when exchanging 'delicate' informations by email, I did limit the recipients to 'coleagues' I more or less knew and did trust that they also knew how to treat confidential 'news'.

often, very often, I was sure that the airlines did already know about loopholes or 'extensive' interpretations, and then I went right on the board with it, so that 'as long as it lasts' as many FlyerTalkers as possible were able to decide themselves if the wanted to 'join the band--waggon'.

the profits of information-sharing on FlyerTalk-board, and making many personal friends and experiencing many different personalities, and my constant curiosity to learn and get to know other 'crazy, addicted' FrequentFliers, for me, outweights by far the constant potential risks that 'a loophole' an 'extensive use of some offer/coupon/etc/etc' could disappear sooner than later by being posted here.

If we become to nerveous, to restricted with infos, than the FlyerTalk-Board interest would just fade away. And that would be, for me, the bigger loss than some disappearing loopholes (that I wouldn't know and use anyway probably, if this Board wouldn't fascinate me anymore.

Long life to our board and to our community!"

I would second all of the above and add that I have learned the most clever travel tricks from others at live Flyer Talk Get Togethers.

The most clever travel trick I have learned on my own is to be as friendly, polite and charming as possible. It is amazing how many loopholes kindness will open up.

As one who has observed this board much longer than actually having participated (signed on since January, 2000), the enaction by "Punki" of 'refreshing' the thread because of "cybernoise" smacks of a cronyism that I have found supresses the active exchange of thoughts and emotions that make dialogue useful.

Punki goes on to espouse the 'erudition' of fellow crony Rudi.

What gives that only Punki's sandlot buddies would have the only opinions that are worth compounding on?

I didn't take it that way, Harold. I am sorry that you are offended. Punki has been SO great SO many times . . . that even if one was offended by her actions, it seems easy enough and appropriate to give her the benefit of the doubt.

best regards,
-levi aka eastwest

I just forced my self to re-read the "other" loopholes thread and now more than ever - I side with Punki. There is alot of "cybernoise" on it. In fact, it smacks of mean-spiritedness and name calling. Punki was all the classier for referring to it as "cybernoise."

If I were you, Harold, I would apologize and edit my post.

I am going to agree with eastwest.

I was very upset to see jesetter's thread go down a path where the discussion at hand was lost. Anyone can view the topic and see how it has diverged 180 degrees from the main point. Being a very astute FT'er, Punki has tried to correctly steer the discussion, which can effect all FlyerTalkers', back onto track.
</rant>

getting back to the topic...

I am really caught in a Catch-22? Do I want to know every loophole in a given program? Of course. But am I also "scared" at the possibility of losing this ability? Yes. I am more than willing to give and take.

I have nothing wrong with the dissemination of information on the internet if it is done in a correct manner. Sometimes the bulletin board forum of FT isn't the correct one b/c, we must admit, Big Borther is watching.

I am more than willing to send an email (and take a topic offline) to a flyertalker to share my knowledge of obscure intricasies of a given program. Hopefully, those people who I can help out are appreciative b/c I am appreciative when it is done for me.

Even though FT was born "where frequent travelers from around the world came to share knowledge and experiences about everything miles and point related," my opininion is to use judgement in posting. There is little to no possibility that everyone is going to agree with every post which I make, but I do try to limit the number of those who disagree with me. If I post something and someone provides legitimate reasons why I should edit it. I most likely will.

I believe that nearly all FT'ers are here to help others out. We all appreciate a new tip if it comes along, but is it really the end of our day if someone, somewhere doesn't share their experience or knowledge openly?

IMHO, (no facts to base this on...) 95% of FT'ers rank in the 98th percentile in terms of an airline's FF program knowledge. IMHO, we are not hurting for more knowledge. Every bit of knowledge that is shared, we should be thankful for. However, if something is not shared, we shouldn't be bitter about the fact.

</rant #2>

I learned a long time ago one should not bring a bullhorn to a cocktail party. To think everyone wants to hear what I have to say is just downright rude. To believe that as an attendee of the party I am under an obligation to tell everything I know to everyone in attendance would be even more so.

I like the concept of providing a general indication of what I've found, with enough information that someone else can decide if it might apply to him/her, and offering to get into specifics via private e-mail. From what I know of the airline/hotel visitors to these boards, one of whom I know rather well personally, they're not here to clamp down on "loopholes" or anything else, but that can change and there's also the exception.

And I think Punki did us a service by re-starting this thread without the clutter. Thanks!

"...And I think Punki did us a service by re-starting this thread without the clutter. Thanks!..."

Surely, IMHO!

As I vehement opponent of "cronyism" that might supresses the active exchange of thoughts and emotions that make dialogue useful, I believe this particular brand/type of cronyism, if it is such, in which one actively engages others to encourage tolerance, if not inclusiveness, is just fine!

As noted, it's the absurd flames that we should discourage!

Many have made mean spirited posts bearing incorrect information regarding me personally - for whatever reason(s) - yet that is their choice - even if I do not like it! I just try to ignore it!

Free exchange of independent thought(s) and individual judgement(s) by individual folks are the key and I think that is what Punki hopes to do Harold!

-No crony
No clique member
Just another FT'er!

What I truly hoped to do was focus totally on jetsetter's very, very good and important question because it is one that often causes me to ponder.

I am currently in the process of preparing to teach a Frequent Flyer program at a national conference in Las Vegas next week, so this question has been resting especially heavily upon me this week. Most of the attendees will be marketing and trade show types for (usually but not always) larger companies. How much do I share with them? Do I simply give them the basics of the various types of programs and direct them to FlyerTalk, or do I share some really good secrets with them?

The same question often arises when I am posting on FlyerTalk. How much should I share?

While discretion is the better part of valor and a whole bunch of other stuff, I will most certainly share my best secret (posted above) with anyone, anywhere, anytime--a charming smile and attitude is still the best key to opening loopholes.

Punki,

Any chance you would offer your program to us FlyerTalkers....????

I feel a mileage run to Punki coming on!!!

William

Punki-

I lurk UA every couple weeks or so and find your civility (not at the exclusion of other regulars of course!) refreshing. Hopefully, decorum will ultimately prevail amidst the heat of competing, if not conflicting opinions.

With respect to the 'secrets' of the trade, I find that most of my usable 'secrets' are grounded in 'working the system', not 'beating the system'. The most applicable 'working of the system' seems to be the so-called airport discretion/agent discretion/gate discretion model. Whereby if you bump into a sympathetic agent or an agent you truly have a relationship with, you can (not always will, but can!!) coupled with a lighter load on your flight... unexpected benefits can pop up.

When a discretionary bonus/benefit is transformed in one's mind into an expected entitlement, sure there are going to be disaffected FFers. If someone's goal is to 'work' or 'beat' the system 100% of the time, that person will never be satiated or appeased by revealing 'secrets'.

I trust that most of us fall into the category of 'lets good naturedly take our best shot' when we are gunning for an off-the-books benefit. If we succeed, it feels good enjoying the benefit AND knowing that we are actually kinda travel savvy. But if we don't succeed, we can take the cheerful 'no harm/no foul attitude' and get on with our flight (and our lives!).

I like spiffing MY customers when it is not to the detriment of my job status, my company's bottom line and of course, not crossing any legal lines! But what I savor most about giving to my customers is, their sense of surprise, gratitude and pleasure.
If I sensed that they were ANTICIPATING my effort at largesse, I might not feel so inclined to spiff them (or at least not so frequently). I'm sure our CSR agents around the country feel that way too. They KNOW we're good customers; they KNOW what our hot buttons are; we just have to TRUST them to pace themselves in giving to us- enough to keep us happy, but not so much that the novelty wears off and/or not so much that their efforts on our behalf could jeopardize jobs on their behalf!!

FYI- I don't post alot of my cert stuff on Coupon Cx because my CSRs, while they can fly free, can't stay or drive free. So, my UA car and hotel certs are quite effective ambassadors of goodwill...your Swiss Chocalates notwithstanding Rudi. And I don't think Cleveland's primary culinary export- pierogies, are yet in high demand by CSRs.

Thanks for hearing me out.

[This message has been edited by beaubo (edited 02-27-2001).]

oops

[This message has been edited by beaubo (edited 02-27-2001).]

I must say that this group is so knowledgeable that I find it VERY difficult indeed to be the bearer of any program "scoops" on FT. I would very much like to contribute to the vast knowledge base I have so successfully tapped here, but I more often feel like a taker than a giver.

So late last year I looked into my online account of program X (I'm still afraid to talk about it) and found that I was tens of thousands of miles richer ! It seemed that a partner of program X had a program whereby I was racking in bonus miles - applied to the period during when I was traveling non-stop! In all - I had received over 50k miles at that point and ended up w/ over 60k bonus miles in one month.

My quandry: If I exposed this, I could be busted and lose the miles - for if I enrolled for this bonus, I made no record of that fact. On the other hand, here's my big chance to contribute to my FT friends. In the end, I cautiously asked if anyone else had their partner X bonus miles posted? A few FTers found a similar christmas present in their account - but surprisingly none of us could remember enrolling for it and a few didn't even have a known relationship with partner X.

Loopholes? I think I would share those - for certainly they'll find out about them quickly enough. Better my FT friends could take advantage of them as quickly as possible.

I took several ethics classes in college, and I frequently like to view my actions and others from this perspective. I'd be interested in whether someone believes I behaved unethically by keeping quiet. Should I have called program X and said "I'm not sure I'm entitled to these bonus miles"? I think I know the pure answer and I guess the take-home is that I'm flawed.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[This message has been edited by svpii (edited 02-27-2001).]