|
Originally Posted by pbd456
(Post 28739146)
what is the actual rule? it seems GDS should be the authority?
the new rule is up... |
Originally Posted by pbd456
(Post 28784213)
10. PERMITTED COMBINATIONS I thought side trips were permitted with no restrictions?Add-ons not permitted Combinations with other fares not permitted |
I suspect the intent is that other tickets should not be combined in the same PNR as the xONEx ticket. Obviously as separate tickets the restrictions are the now limited through checking of luggage and protection in times of irregular operations.
Happy wandering (as long as you don't need to through check) Fred |
Originally Posted by wandering_fred
(Post 28786050)
I suspect the intent is that other tickets should not be combined in the same PNR as the xONEx ticket. Obviously as separate tickets the restrictions are the now limited through checking of luggage and protection in times of irregular operations.
Happy wandering (as long as you don't need to through check) Fred |
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28786639)
It used to be possible to include side trips on the same ticket.
Originally Posted by wandering_fred
(Post 28786050)
I suspect the intent is that other tickets should not be combined in the same PNR as the xONEx ticket.
|
Originally Posted by JAXBA
(Post 28787749)
That seems to ring a bell but I'm not sure either. The oldest PDF I could find looking quickly, was Apr 2016, which has the same wording.
10. PERMITTED COMBINATIONS Add-ons not permitted Combinations with other fares not permitted |
This is at odds with the GDS: LONLON BA DONE3 has the following:
Code:
COMBINATIONS |
have anyone re-routed under the new rule since the new rule was posted on oneworld website again?
both QR and CX claimed that the rule wont allow the 2 stops in Asia (but it was before the new rule was posted again on oneworld website.) |
Originally Posted by pbd456
(Post 28817633)
have anyone re-routed under the new rule since the new rule was posted on oneworld website again?
both QR and CX claimed that the rule wont allow the 2 stops in Asia (but it was before the new rule was posted again on oneworld website.) |
Originally Posted by headinclouds
(Post 28825908)
I believe that this is a moot point because the rules in effect at the time of the purchase are the ones that apply. Calling Calchas & pandperth.
|
Originally Posted by headinclouds
(Post 28825908)
I believe that this is a moot point because the rules in effect at the time of the purchase are the ones that apply. Calling Calchas & pandperth. I would love to take advantage of the new rules regarding N.Am entries, but the down side is that the fare may be redone at today's rates !!! A big no-no for the ex-CAI fares that everyone is currently using.
The barrack-room lawyer in me says that this must be the case - the contract between a pax and an airline essentially consists of the fare rules and the general conditions of carriage. For there to be certainty in the contract, these should remain on effect for the duration of the contracted service, in other for the duration of the ticket. If a pax could request/demand the right to take advantage of a favourable rule change, then the airlines would in turn demand that unfavourable rule changes be enforced. |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28827393)
I have no direct experience of this. And my (maybe faulty) memory is that the fare rules in place at the time of purchase remain in effect for the entirety of the ticket. (IIRC this was in the context of an airline leaving Oneworld, but if you already had a flight booked with that airline, then that was still honoured.)
The barrack-room lawyer in me says that this must be the case - the contract between a pax and an airline essentially consists of the fare rules and the general conditions of carriage. For there to be certainty in the contract, these should remain on effect for the duration of the contracted service, in other for the duration of the ticket. If a pax could request/demand the right to take advantage of a favourable rule change, then the airlines would in turn demand that unfavourable rule changes be enforced. But it is not universally applied when reissuing xONEx fares, probably because changes are done by hand. |
Originally Posted by jbalmuth
(Post 28723060)
I'm curious whether the itinerary (for which QF agreed to use the new fare rules) was ticketed prior to Aug 1, 2017.
As in the previous answers, in my experience, practice have been to use the newest rules, but YMMV. |
2017-Sep-05 New Version of the Rule Sheet
There is a new version of the rule sheet on the OW web site
BUT I cannot spot any changes from the version published on Aug 5th:confused: Can anyone else spot any changes? |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28851411)
There is a new version of the rule sheet on the OW web site
BUT I cannot spot any changes from the version published on Aug 5th:confused: Can anyone else spot any changes? Before: Code:
TRAVEL BETWEEN SOUTH WEST PACIFIC AND EUROPE /Code:
TRAVEL BETWEEN SOUTH WEST PACIFIC AND EUROPE /The changed full stop "ASIA. CONTINENTS" -> "ASIA CONTINENTS." is surely a typo. |
Thanks for checking Calchas
I agree that the list cannot be considered exhaustive - because the rule states "e.g." So essentially AKL and CBR have been added to the list of example QR started flying to AKL sometime earlier this year And checking in EF, it appears QR will commence flying to CBR in February next year (now I need to update the New or Changed Routes and Services thread:rolleyes:) |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28855734)
And checking in EF, it appears QR will commence flying to CBR in February next year
|
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28855929)
I am slightly surprised that CBR can handle international traffic ... :)
|
Originally Posted by Unterwegs
(Post 28856061)
I thought that SQ is flying to CBR from SIN. Is SIN domestic
It surprised me that's all :) |
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28856251)
SIN-CBR is not domestic
It surprised me that's all :) I can't see where the traffic would be coming from to support this service IIRC the SQ service SIN-CBR carries on to another destination (in NZ perhaps?) So that service might be more viable than one that terminates in CBR |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28856467)
Yes, it surprised me too
I can't see where the traffic would be coming from to support this service IIRC the SQ service SIN-CBR carries on to another destination (in NZ perhaps?) So that service might be more viable than one that terminates in CBR CBR may have offered a sweetener as well. |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28856467)
...
IIRC the SQ service SIN-CBR carries on to another destination (in NZ perhaps?) So that service might be more viable than one that terminates in CBR Return CBR-WLG can be had in economy for AUD410 and Business for AUD916 - the latter an interesting way to garner 120 of Velocity Status. Those fares indicate lowish loadings on the tag. But I digress ... |
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28855929)
I am slightly surprised that CBR can handle international traffic ... :)
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28856467)
Yes, it surprised me too
I can't see where the traffic would be coming from to support this service IIRC the SQ service SIN-CBR carries on to another destination (in NZ perhaps?) So that service might be more viable than one that terminates in CBR There were a number of scheduled international flights to NZ and other south pacific nations through the 90s and early 00s with temporary immigration processing equipment rolled out when such a flight was at the terminal. Adding permanent international capacity was planned as part of the terminal redevelopment with a location set aside for the needed facilities which was then fitted out when SQ announced their flights. SQ291/292 SIN-CBR-WLG operates 4 times/week. SQ calls it the "Capital Express".
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28856689)
Looking into it: This is a SYD-CBR tag to evade capacity restrictions. QR is only allowed one nonstop flight to SYD each day but they are allowed more if the flight serves minor Australian cities.
CBR may have offered a sweetener as well. The standard Australian air services treaty limits either seats or flights per week to the 4 major ports (PER/MEL/SYD/BNE) while other ports (such as ADL/CBR/CNS/OOL/etc) are unlimited. (eg, Hong Kong is allowed 70 flights/week. CX is using all of them, but could add more flights to CBR, ADL, OOL if they wanted to) The current agreement with Qatar is limited to 21 flights/week for the major ports with an allowance for 7 more provided those 7 are to/via an unlimited port. QRs allowance is taken by daily flights to PER, MEL and SYD. SYD was added when the limit was raised from 14 to 21. |
Originally Posted by serfty
(Post 28857751)
SIN-xCBR-WLG & vv. Capital to Capital?
Return CBR-WLG can be had in economy for AUD410 and Business for AUD916 - the latter an interesting way to garner 120 of Velocity Status. Those fares indicate lowish loadings on the tag. But I digress ... Yes SQ loads on CBR-WLG vv are generally low (and mostly passengers flying to/from SIN and beyond). More info in the thread for this route in the SQ forum. |
I am currently attempting to add one continent and change routing to an existing AA ticketed DONE4 ex-CAI. I have flown 2 segments and 14 remain... well, I have actually flown 3 segments, but they will count as 2 segments, I was protected with an extra connection in AMM due to the QR ban.
Segments flown (will count as 2 segments): CAI-xAMM-xDOH-JFK New routing changes for the remaining 14 segments : JFK-LAX-xDFW-JFK-xMIA-CCS-xMIA-xJFK-NRT-CGK-xNRT-HKG-MAD-JNB-DOH Called the AA RTW desk today and they declined to make the following routing change as it is not allowed: CCS-xMIA-xJFK-NRT Soon into the conversation they stated that the new 2 stopover rule for North America will not apply in my case, and that they have to go with the rules at the time of ticketing (November 2016). That is, the old rules discussed earlier in this thread - only one stopover and one transfer. Which works for me, as I do not need to make a second stopover in North America, only transfer to reach Asia. But what they refer to as "one transfer" is actually one single connectio. AA only flies to CCS from MIA and there are no OW direct flights from MIA to Asia. Is AA RTW desk correct about this? I thought we could have more than one connection during a North America "transfer", as long as the connecting flights were under 24hr and you had enough North American segments available. After about 1 hour on the phone with no flexibility on their part, I said that I would call back once I reviewed the old rules in more detail. I do not have the November 2016 rules, I wonder if any if you have them and could share some insights on this issue... Thanks |
Originally Posted by stex
(Post 28867164)
But what they refer to as "one transfer" is actually one single connectio. AA only flies to CCS from MIA and there are no OW direct flights from MIA to Asia.
|
This has been discussed before in this forum
- whether the rule's wording "provided one is a transfer without without stopover" (my emphasis) - means a single transfer of less than 24 hrs - or multiple transfers each of which is less than 24hrs Some have reported being allowed multiple transfers but others have reported being refused FWIW (very little:)) I have always been of the view that the rule means a single transfer However, stex in your particular case AA175 and AA61 are your friends. Each is a direct service MIA-NRT with a stop and plane change in DFW. But for the purpose of a Oneworld Explorer they count as a single segment |
And Sarah, retired from AA and formerly the AA RTW guru, said that a connection without transfer means 1 city. Full stop.
The info that the rules in effect when purchased seems to dispel any notions of using new and 'better' rules when they are updated. |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28868366)
I have always been of the view that the rule means a single transfer.
Originally Posted by headinclouds
(Post 28868962)
And Sarah, retired from AA and formerly the AA RTW guru, said that a connection without transfer means 1 city. Full stop.
The info that the rules in effect when purchased seems to dispel any notions of using new and 'better' rules when they are updated. |
aa61 is MIA NRT (1 stop)
|
Originally Posted by zoombee
(Post 28868289)
I'm interested too - AA gave me the same response a few years ago. I was on a tight reticketing timeline so changed my route slightly instead but I *think* I've done a 2 domestic segment transit before (5+ years back if so).
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28868366)
This has been discussed before in this forum
- whether the rule's wording "provided one is a transfer without without stopover" (my emphasis) - means a single transfer of less than 24 hrs - or multiple transfers each of which is less than 24hrs Some have reported being allowed multiple transfers but others have reported being refused FWIW (very little:)) I have always been of the view that the rule means a single transfer However, stex in your particular case AA175 and AA61 are your friends. Each is a direct service MIA-NRT with a stop and plane change in DFW. But for the purpose of a Oneworld Explorer they count as a single segment
Originally Posted by headinclouds
(Post 28868962)
And Sarah, retired from AA and formerly the AA RTW guru, said that a connection without transfer means 1 city. Full stop.
The info that the rules in effect when purchased seems to dispel any notions of using new and 'better' rules when they are updated.
Originally Posted by JAXBA
(Post 28869318)
That would have been BA's interpretation in my day too: one connection only. We would also have used the historic rules as filed in Amadeus or ATPCo.
See, for example: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/9108367-post7.html |
Of course for new itineraries, this whole discussion on "transfer without stopover" is moot - the current rules (see post #461) have removed the words.
And so new itineraries allow multiple flight segments on each visit to each of the allowed 2nd visit continents and stopovers can be had on each visit too. |
Originally Posted by pandaperth
(Post 28868366)
... "provided one is a transfer without without stopover" (my emphasis)
|
Yes and specifically a "transfer" in usual IATA language is one flight connecting to another flight. [But the flight need not be nonstop.]
|
Thanks to all for the clarifications. And thanks very much pandaperth for suggesting flights AA175/AA61, they are ideal to solve my routing issue. Unfortunately, at this time both flights are only active until November 28, 2017. I need to fly them in June 2018. Just spoke with AA (both RTW desk and PLT desk) and they do not know whether it will be scheduled after November 28. I am not sure if they are considered seasonal flights and whether there is a predictable timeframe for when AA will confirm or not the extension of these flights... if any of you have some insights on this, please let me know.
One more question about transfer rules. The following is copied from the "Transfers" section of xONEx fare rules retrieved from ExpertFlyer: IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN EUROPE VIA AFRICA. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN JAPAN / DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF KOREA / REPUBLIC OF KOREA/ SOUTHEAST ASIA VIA SOUTHWEST PACIFIC. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN NORTH AMERICA VIA SOUTH AMERICA. 7 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. 2 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT WITHIN THE FARE ORIGIN COUNTRY WITHIN ANY NATION 1 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT IN HAWAII 7 PERMITTED IN PANAMA/CONTIGUOUS U.S.A./ CANADA/PUERTO RICO/US VIRGIN ISLANDS/ALASKA/ MEXICO/INTERNATIONAL POINTS IN THE CARIBBEAN AREA/CENTRAL AMERICA. |
Massive new section on Transfers in the Rules. There are multiple of these but this is one condition:
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AFRICA VIA EUROPE. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN JAPAN / DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF KOREA / REPUBLIC OF KOREA/ SOUTHEAST ASIA VIA SOUTHWEST PACIFIC. AND IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN NORTH AMERICA VIA SOUTH AMERICA. 5 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. NONE PERMITTED IN LIBYA 2 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT WITHIN THE FARE ORIGIN COUNTRY WITHIN ANY NATION 5 PERMITTED IN AFRICA. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. AND - 7 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. 1 PERMITTED TRANSFERS BETWEEN DOMESTIC FLIGHT AND INTERNATIONAL FLIGHT IN HAWAII 7 PERMITTED IN PANAMA/CONTIGUOUS U.S.A./ CANADA/PUERTO RICO/US VIRGIN ISLANDS/ ALASKA/ MEXICO/INTERNATIONAL POINTS IN THE CARIBBEAN AREA/CENTRAL AMERICA. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/ AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. AND - UNLIMITED TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. NONE PERMITTED IN PANAMA NONE PERMITTED IN MAURITIUS/SOUTH AFRICA 2 PERMITTED AT VIA POINTS BETWEEN UNITED KINGDOM ALBANIA/BULGARIA/CYPRUS/ALGERIA/ GREECE/CROATIA/MOROCCO/ROMANIA/RUSSIA/ TUNISIA/TURKEY/UKRAINE/MIDDLE EAST 5 PERMITTED IN LIBYA/EUROPE/MIDDLE EAST 5 PERMITTED IN SOUTH AMERICA 5 PERMITTED IN SOUTHWEST PACIFIC 5 PERMITTED IN AREA 3. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/ AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. AND - 4 TRANSFERS PERMITTED ON THE PRICING UNIT. NONE PERMITTED IN MAURITIUS/SOUTH AFRICA 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS IN JAPAN / DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF KOREA / REPUBLIC OF KOREA/SOUTHEAST ASIA/SOUTH ASIAN SUBCONTINENT/RUSSIAN FEDERATION EAST OF URALS 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS IN PANAMA/ NORTH AMERICA/INTERNATIONAL POINTS IN THE CARIBBEAN AREA/CENTRAL AMERICA 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS IN EUROPE 1 PERMITTED AT CONNECTIONS AT VIA POINTS BETWEEN AFRICA AREA 1/AREA 3. FARE BREAK SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT PROVIDED - FARE BREAK POINTS IN MIDDLE EAST - OTHER POINT MIDDLE EAST/UNITED STATES - OTHER POINT CANADA/ CANADA - OTHER POINT UNITED STATES/HKG - OTHER POINT CHINA/CHINA - OTHER POINT HKG/MALAYSIA - OTHER POINT SIN/SIN - OTHER POINT MALAYSIA/ AFRICA - OTHER POINT AFRICA/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT SRI LANKA/SRI LANKA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES/MALDIVES - OTHER POINT INDIA/INDIA - OTHER POINT MALDIVES DOMESTIC - DESTINATION FARE BREAK POINTS. EMBEDDED SURFACE SECTORS PERMITTED ON THE FARE COMPONENT WITHIN AREA 1 WITHIN AREA 2 WITHIN AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 2 AND AREA 3 BETWEEN AREA 3 AND AREA 2. I'm still trying to get my head around what the huge list of fare break points and permitted transfers means. How does an xONEx fare have fare break points and routing? |
Originally Posted by beardoc
(Post 28894168)
Massive new section on Transfers in the Rules. There are multiple of these but this is one condition:
This is only one of the new conditions. There are many more in the same section. I'm still trying to get my head around what the huge list of fare break points and permitted transfers means. How does an xONEx fare have fare break points and routing? The xONEx product allows the start and end cities to differ. This is only allowed domestically and between certain countries. But all the fares are published as XXX-XXX (i.e., back to the same city). So to get around that, formally speaking you have a surface sector at the end of your itinerary joining the finally visited city with the fare destination. This is called a “fare break surface sector” because it occurs at a fare break point. Fare break surface sectors are usually disallowed because they increase the complexity of itinerary pricing so much if you have to consider fares for non-visited cities as part of your pricing calculation. Nonetheless, they are required here. The xONEx product also has very unusual transfer allowances (a certain number in each continent, you can go through the same city multiple times but only fly the same pair of cities once in the same direction): again, because it is unusual, there is no short cut in the ATPCO language, it all has to be expressed explicitly. So that’s why it’s so long and incomprehensible. I have no doubt it is full of exploitable mistakes, if someone looks carefully enough. :) |
Originally Posted by Calchas
(Post 28894312)
This was inserted some time ago (a few months at least) to allow Sabre to autoprice xONEx itineraries. It is in APTCO language. The rules are generated by a computer, for another computer to read. They are not intended to be human readable.
The xONEx product allows the start and end cities to differ. This is only allowed domestically and between certain countries. But all the fares are published as XXX-XXX (i.e., back to the same city). So to get around that, formally speaking you have a surface sector at the end of your itinerary joining the finally visited city with the fare destination. This is called a “fare break surface sector” because it occurs at a fare break point. Fare break surface sectors are usually disallowed because they increase the complexity of itinerary pricing so much if you have to consider fares for non-visited cities as part of your pricing calculation. Nonetheless, they are required here. The xONEx product also has very unusual transfer allowances (a certain number in each continent, you can go through the same city multiple times but only fly the same pair of cities once in the same direction): again, because it is unusual, there is no short cut in the ATPCO language, it all has to be expressed explicitly. So that’s why it’s so long and incomprehensible. I have no doubt it is full of exploitable mistakes, if someone looks carefully enough. :) If it's just to codify for autopricing then that's fine. |
I'm making this thread a sticky.
Gardyloo Oneworld moderator |
2017-Oct-30 New Version of the Rule Sheet (Minor Changes only)
2017-Oct-30 New Version of the Rule Sheet (Minor Changes only)
Using diffchecker, the only changes appear to be:
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:48 pm. |
This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.