1/2/09 NW E-mail: Transfer Miles NW<->DL, New Award Fees, Sat Night Stay Elim, Etc
Jan 3, 2009, 1:55 am
#181
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In case it was not clear, by "long-haul" flights, I was referring to intercontinental travel (i.e. U.S. to Europe, U.S. to Asia, U.S. to South America, etc.). Unless DL has made a recent change, exit row seats cannot be reserved until the time of check-in on intercontinental flights, at which point they are allocated on a first-come, first-served basis.
Domestic flights are a whole different ball of wax. In fact, on DL's MD-80s, I believe even non-elites can pre-reserve some exit row seats at the time of booking. Like you, from personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that DL and NW elites can reserve exit row seats on domestic flights well before check-in.
Why DL freezes its most frequent travelers out of pre-reserving exit row seating when they are traveling abroad in economy -- where the handful of above-average seats with extra pitch are really important -- yet sees fit to allow them to claim exit row real estate on much more abbreviated domestic flights escapes me.
Domestic flights are a whole different ball of wax. In fact, on DL's MD-80s, I believe even non-elites can pre-reserve some exit row seats at the time of booking. Like you, from personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that DL and NW elites can reserve exit row seats on domestic flights well before check-in.
Why DL freezes its most frequent travelers out of pre-reserving exit row seating when they are traveling abroad in economy -- where the handful of above-average seats with extra pitch are really important -- yet sees fit to allow them to claim exit row real estate on much more abbreviated domestic flights escapes me.
Somewhere here too could be a future DL plan to further fleece customers -- elite or not. What I am saying is that I would not be surprised if DL were to want to try to collect ever more money for some such seats -- especially on international long-haul -- and that by holding off on making such seats available too soon DL doesn't have to worry about setting the stage for upsetting more DL-NW elites by having yet another "benefit" that would be perceived by us as "pulled".
Jan 3, 2009, 1:57 am
#182
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I would like to concentrate on my work. Travel is stressful enough as is without DL-NW making us participate in some sort of childish free-for-all over decent seats at OLCI.
NW is my main carrier. I use AA secondarily to travel where NW does not go (most notably Oceania). AA let's me reserve exit row seats. It's very civilized. Just like NW has always been. If DL-NW decides now to eliminate this most important elite benefit, I honestly don't see why I shouldn't give AA all my business.
Jan 3, 2009, 2:53 am
#183
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Lastly, I'll note that there is lots of good news out there too. We kept our segment qualification, we're implementing comp international upgrades in the elite kits, we've kept the 500 mile minimum, and there is more good news on the way. For example, look for WorldPerks to move to a much more generous (DL-like) million mile program.
We'll work to keep you informed, and keep watching your posts for feedback. Thanks to all of you. Best regards.
We'll work to keep you informed, and keep watching your posts for feedback. Thanks to all of you. Best regards.
It's nice to hear from a real person. It's sometimes easy to believe that the DL people have replaced all of our beloved NW folk with robots.
For those of us who are loyal NW folk, who stuck through NW through the strikes, the bankruptcy, and all the other fun stuff for the last few years, it's felt very much like a shotgun wedding the last year. Very much a take it or leave it, and you should be happy we give you anything type attitude.
This is not what we're used to. NW has always been a customer friendly airline to me. Even when there are problems, there has been no "it's not my problem" mentality. This is enormously important in this day and age.
I personally have run into NW charging a DL fuel surcharge on an award a couple of weeks ago. This was quite a wake up call. As a Platinum elite, many of the fees won't affect me, but will to family members. From the junk change fees, to luggage fees, it adds up to thousands of dollars a year. In this type of economy that just won't fly.
There has been a real degradation of benefits over the last year. I saved the bulk of my miles for RTW trips. I had close to a million, and family members had another 600k. Without any notice, there was a 29k mileage cap on awards, including connections. It's hard to do a real RTW trip with 29k, counting connections. I wrote about a great RTW trip I took in 2006 for InsideFlyer magazine last year. I could barely take 1/2 that trip today.
The saddest thing about the whole merger, is that DL really seems not to care about their frequent fliers. You are always waiting for the next shoe to drop. As a NW flyer, this is what I have to look forward to: Loss of 125% RDM for Platinum flights. A quick reintroduction of systemwide fuel surcharges, as soon as oil starts going up again. The loss of one of your better partners, Continental. I hate to even think of some of the surprises that Jeff Robertson may come up with.
NW has come out with some really great programs the last couple of years. The EliteExtraPerks is great. Getting miles for the 1/2 revenue 1/2 award itineraries, too. Lifetime status is a nice perk, but I'd rather go back two years!
If you are really so worried about close in ticketing wasting seats, then why don't you come up with a logical solution? Instead of punishing all members, at a minimum give each one a number of close in tickets at no charge. Then if they abuse the system have the fees kick in. Give base members 1, silvers 2 per year, 4 or 6 for golds. Allow award redeposits on the same basis.
As many NW fliers, I'm taking a wait and see attitude. Normally I'd already have 2 US-Asia Biz class tickets booked for the year, but currently only have 1/2 of one. If the rewards for being an elite member are reduced so much, a year or two down the road I won't even be a NW elite member, which would really be a shame.
Jan 3, 2009, 4:00 am
#184
Join Date: May 2008
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In case it was not clear, by "long-haul" flights, I was referring to intercontinental travel (i.e. U.S. to Europe, U.S. to Asia, U.S. to South America, etc.). Unless DL has made a recent change, exit row seats cannot be reserved until the time of check-in on intercontinental flights, at which point they are allocated on a first-come, first-served basis.
Domestic flights are a whole different ball of wax. In fact, on DL's MD-80s, I believe even non-elites can pre-reserve some exit row seats at the time of booking. Like you, from personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that DL and NW elites can reserve exit row seats on domestic flights well before check-in.
Domestic flights are a whole different ball of wax. In fact, on DL's MD-80s, I believe even non-elites can pre-reserve some exit row seats at the time of booking. Like you, from personal experience, I can vouch for the fact that DL and NW elites can reserve exit row seats on domestic flights well before check-in.
I disagree. See above.
Jan 3, 2009, 4:42 am
#185
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Scoop, AKA Bob,
We do appreciate your trip to the "Lions Den" to answer some of these questions. The manner in which you are rolling out your changes is flawed and is causing undue customer animosity,
1. If close in inventory control is really the issue then control the inventory...simple. If a flight is getting close to sold out then hold back the award seat....if not let us book as there is no impact. Charging to drive behaviour in this economy for something that can be managed without it is suicidal. I actually have noticed that NW has been doing the opposite; releasing close-in PerkSavers when flights are relatively empty. That is a GREAT inventory management system and allows the AL to get something for a seat that otherwise would have been empty vs a seat that is only "theoretically empty" months in advance.
2. Most of us want this to work and most of us, due to actions taken at DL in the past are very skeptical. I was frankly shocked that an announcement of this kind came out now. Always LEAD WITH THE GOOD STUFF. I think this thread would have been different if we all learned that the Phantom program, or SWU's would continue. The Sat stay is a tiny benefit to a smaller % of flyer's and does not come close to offsetting the message about increased fee's.
3. Delicate timing. I for one, have just began booking on DL metal to get a feel for the service and routing's. My first DL metal flight is next week and I got the EUA! I was starting to feel pretty good about this thing working out...now not so much. There are millions of FF'ers in my position and the last thing you want to do is alienate us NOW!
The bottom line is: The "Free Ticket" is the Holy Grail of frequent flyer's. If that "free ticket" ends up being a slightly discounted ticket due to fees and surcharges, it may as well be nothing. The good feeling someone gets when they and their loved ones can be treated to a WBC flight that would otherwise be out of reach, or when in the click of a mouse we can send our nephew home for Christmas is exactly why we focus our business with you. I urge DL/NW to not lose sight of this. This is like taking the steak out of the Lions cage and will never garner anything but bad feelings.
All the best,
AvidFlyer-
AKA Frank-
We do appreciate your trip to the "Lions Den" to answer some of these questions. The manner in which you are rolling out your changes is flawed and is causing undue customer animosity,
1. If close in inventory control is really the issue then control the inventory...simple. If a flight is getting close to sold out then hold back the award seat....if not let us book as there is no impact. Charging to drive behaviour in this economy for something that can be managed without it is suicidal. I actually have noticed that NW has been doing the opposite; releasing close-in PerkSavers when flights are relatively empty. That is a GREAT inventory management system and allows the AL to get something for a seat that otherwise would have been empty vs a seat that is only "theoretically empty" months in advance.
2. Most of us want this to work and most of us, due to actions taken at DL in the past are very skeptical. I was frankly shocked that an announcement of this kind came out now. Always LEAD WITH THE GOOD STUFF. I think this thread would have been different if we all learned that the Phantom program, or SWU's would continue. The Sat stay is a tiny benefit to a smaller % of flyer's and does not come close to offsetting the message about increased fee's.
3. Delicate timing. I for one, have just began booking on DL metal to get a feel for the service and routing's. My first DL metal flight is next week and I got the EUA! I was starting to feel pretty good about this thing working out...now not so much. There are millions of FF'ers in my position and the last thing you want to do is alienate us NOW!
The bottom line is: The "Free Ticket" is the Holy Grail of frequent flyer's. If that "free ticket" ends up being a slightly discounted ticket due to fees and surcharges, it may as well be nothing. The good feeling someone gets when they and their loved ones can be treated to a WBC flight that would otherwise be out of reach, or when in the click of a mouse we can send our nephew home for Christmas is exactly why we focus our business with you. I urge DL/NW to not lose sight of this. This is like taking the steak out of the Lions cage and will never garner anything but bad feelings.
All the best,
AvidFlyer-
AKA Frank-
Jan 3, 2009, 5:45 am
#186
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Posts: 451
As of this moment, Elites can reserve preferred seats on DL, including TPAC and TATL flights. There should be no question or doubt on this topic.
It is true DL tried to change the preferred and exit row seats to a "purchased product", but this was rescinded in early December.
I am currently booked on a flight in Jan to FRA, flying back from CDG. Both ways are confirmed in exit rows at no charge
It is true DL tried to change the preferred and exit row seats to a "purchased product", but this was rescinded in early December.
I am currently booked on a flight in Jan to FRA, flying back from CDG. Both ways are confirmed in exit rows at no charge
Jan 3, 2009, 5:47 am
#187
Join Date: Jul 2005
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It's all about the revenue
Delta has cut capacity, raised fares, and implemented confusing fees to squeeze the liesure traveler.
Who is left to squeeze for the revenue that Delta needs? Business/ frequent fliers.
Who is left to squeeze for the revenue that Delta needs? Business/ frequent fliers.
Jan 3, 2009, 5:54 am
#188
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Revenue is not the only way to improve margins. Expenses need to be in-line and they clearly are not. DL should look at its own bloated middle-management ranks to clean up their balance sheet. You can only squeeze the customer so hard..If they are actively cutting flights/capacity then they better be doing the same across the board for expenses or they are doomed.
Jan 3, 2009, 6:49 am
#189
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The concern is that people are forgoing purchasing a ticket for cash, instead choosing to book that same ticket with miles, when those miles are worth significantly less. It is not that they are concerned about too many mileage tickets leaving them no inventory to sell. FWIW, this is the same logic that lead DL to introduce the 3-tier chart, CO to no longer offer last-seat availability for general members and to raise their EasyPass rates, and for NW to have not had it in the first place.
The airline's logic is pretty much exactly the same as my own. I wouldn't spend 25k miles for a $200 ticket, but if I need to fly last minute and the cash price is $1000, then that 50k miles starts becoming attractive. The close-in fees are exactly an attempt to reduce these arbitrage opportunities.
The only risk, of course, is that these fees will end up leading to a reduction in loads, but this would assume that a significant portion of the customers booking last-minute award tickets are using them for discretionary travel that will now not be taken. While admitting this is a possibility, I also have no reason to doubt Scoop, or Jeff, or CO Insider when they say that they feel such tickets pose a significant threat to their revenue models.
Revenue is not the only way to improve margins. Expenses need to be in-line and they clearly are not. DL should look at its own bloated middle-management ranks to clean up their balance sheet. You can only squeeze the customer so hard..If they are actively cutting flights/capacity then they better be doing the same across the board for expenses or they are doomed.
Last edited by pbarnette; Jan 3, 2009 at 6:58 am
Jan 3, 2009, 6:57 am
#190
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I think you are misunderstanding what they mean about the inventory control. The issue is that they want to match, as best they can, the revenue from the award ticket (yes, the airline recognizes revenue on award tickets) to the revenue for a cash ticket. Assuming that the close-in tickets are more expensive than advance-purchase tickets, then they will want to recover that premium from the award redemption.
The concern is that people are forgoing purchasing a ticket for cash, instead choosing to book that same ticket with miles, when those miles are worth significantly less. It is not that they are concerned about too many mileage tickets leaving them no inventory to sell. FWIW, this is the same logic that lead DL to introduce the 3-tier chart, CO to no longer offer last-seat availability for general members and to raise their EasyPass rates, and for NW to have not had it in the first place.
The airline's logic is pretty much exactly the same as my own. I wouldn't spend 25k miles for a $200 ticket, but if I need to fly last minute and the cash price is $1000, then that 50k miles starts becoming attractive. The close-in fees are exactly an attempt to reduce these arbitrage opportunities.
The only risk, of course, is that these fees will end up leading to a reduction in loads, but this would assume that a significant portion of the customers booking last-minute award tickets are using them for discretionary travel that will now not be taken. While admitting this is a possibility, I also have no reason to doubt Scoop, or Jeff, or CO Insider when they say that they feel such tickets pose a significant threat to their revenue models.
The concern is that people are forgoing purchasing a ticket for cash, instead choosing to book that same ticket with miles, when those miles are worth significantly less. It is not that they are concerned about too many mileage tickets leaving them no inventory to sell. FWIW, this is the same logic that lead DL to introduce the 3-tier chart, CO to no longer offer last-seat availability for general members and to raise their EasyPass rates, and for NW to have not had it in the first place.
The airline's logic is pretty much exactly the same as my own. I wouldn't spend 25k miles for a $200 ticket, but if I need to fly last minute and the cash price is $1000, then that 50k miles starts becoming attractive. The close-in fees are exactly an attempt to reduce these arbitrage opportunities.
The only risk, of course, is that these fees will end up leading to a reduction in loads, but this would assume that a significant portion of the customers booking last-minute award tickets are using them for discretionary travel that will now not be taken. While admitting this is a possibility, I also have no reason to doubt Scoop, or Jeff, or CO Insider when they say that they feel such tickets pose a significant threat to their revenue models.
Jan 3, 2009, 7:02 am
#191
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I am not misunderstanding it I am just trying to take the $$ component out and get the same result. If the AL holds back inventory in the final 7 days until they see what the load is then they can attain the same result. If the load is 9's across the board at 48 hours then release some savers, if not do not offer an award on the flight at all. That way the AL gets the revenue if it is there and FF'ers do trade a free ticket for a discounted ticket.
Besides, they have other methods at their disposal if they want to drive discretionary, last-minute redemptions, like some airlines do with the weekly redemption specials.
Jan 3, 2009, 7:26 am
#192
Join Date: Jul 2008
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But the problem is that nobody will take advantage of that "opportunity" because doing so is unlikely to actually improve that airline's bottom line. What is the incentive for any airline to do this? For the first time in a long time, the airline's seem to actually be concerned with making money, and I think this time it might stick.
The problem is their approach to it. Nickel-and-diming your best customers - elites - is not the way to profitability. You just p*ss off your best customers. This is MBA 101.
The airlines should concentrate on improving profitability by cutting management overhead, price control and managing their cash correctly. Just like any other for-profit business would do.
Arguably, the mainline carriers are 0-for-3 on that accord, and the resultant 'extra' fees so popular now (post-fuel-crisis) are viewed as mandatory and important to the bottom line. Not so. Example #1: WN. Shoot, the mainline carriers couldn't even figure out how to hedge fuel correctly and got totally burned in 2Q/3Q08. Maybe now they have learned a lesson from WN.
Jan 3, 2009, 7:28 am
#193
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2. Most of us want this to work and most of us, due to actions taken at DL in the past are very skeptical. I was frankly shocked that an announcement of this kind came out now. Always LEAD WITH THE GOOD STUFF. I think this thread would have been different if we all learned that the Phantom program, or SWU's would continue. The Sat stay is a tiny benefit to a smaller % of flyer's and does not come close to offsetting the message about increased fee's.
This whole exchange has "Jeff" written all over it. After he lied about double-mileage award available, and FlyerTalkers figured out anyway that it was tied to a discounted fare class, he retorted with a mythical "giveback" that couldn't talk about yet. It turned out to be a joke (paying with miles at .01/mile, yet another devaluation
).So JeffBob gets us all roiled up & then comes out with a phantom upgrade program. Take a good look at Delta's current program which is really just a program to sell expensive coach seats to folks who in the end usually can't upgrade.
You trust these people? I sure as hell don't. And let nobody say they weren't warned:
Last edited by MikeMpls; Mar 15, 2009 at 9:49 am
Jan 3, 2009, 7:39 am
#194
Join Date: Jul 2008
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But the poster said that there were absolutely no positive changes.
The "most awards tickets are for leisure trips" was exactly the reason for a Saturday night stay. There ARE people, particularly small business owners that are just barely getting by that are redeeming award tickets for business reasons. There are still companies who insist they "own" the FF miles and mandate they be used for company travel.
Personally, I have several times in the past redeemed midweek award tickets for leisure.
I didn't say it was a big deal but it's more that absolutely no positive changes.
The "most awards tickets are for leisure trips" was exactly the reason for a Saturday night stay. There ARE people, particularly small business owners that are just barely getting by that are redeeming award tickets for business reasons. There are still companies who insist they "own" the FF miles and mandate they be used for company travel.
Personally, I have several times in the past redeemed midweek award tickets for leisure.
I didn't say it was a big deal but it's more that absolutely no positive changes.
Eliminating arbitrary, artificial restrictions costs DL $0. Sure, it may seem like a 'positive' change to you, but in reality it does nothing.
Rather, it is much in the mold of 'OK, I've stopped beating you now, don't you feel better?'
As I said before, DL had their chance to prove industry leadership. They blew it. They are merely a very large lemming amongst a gaggle of other, smaller lemmings.
Scoop, I feel sorry for you, man. Must be a bummer working for DL, having to wear blue warpaint, and having to devise creative ways to tell your best customers they are getting the shaft.
Jan 3, 2009, 7:50 am
#195
Join Date: Jul 2000
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The Kubler-Ross stages of Flyertalker grief...
Denial - "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me!"
Anger - "Why me? It's not fair!" "NO! NO! How can this happen!"
Bargaining - "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything, can't you stretch it out? A few more years."
Depression - "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die . . . What's the point?"
Acceptance - "It's going to be OK."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
Denial - "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me!"
Anger - "Why me? It's not fair!" "NO! NO! How can this happen!"
Bargaining - "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything, can't you stretch it out? A few more years."
Depression - "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die . . . What's the point?"
Acceptance - "It's going to be OK."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
