As always Poopdeck balanced and fair, it really is a tough situation. Both sides are in posture mode with the passengers in a tough spot in between. Here is hoping that the Red Tail pulls through. I know as I work in a pretty demanding service business myself that "management" and "workers" are constantly sniping. However, that does not change the fact that the client is king and/or queen, as the case may be. It is especially noteworthy that someone like Poopdeck because he is the kind of guy that will take time to praise those at NWA when praise should be given (as is evidenced by several threads on this board!. Folks have a choice and as is evidenced by discussions here are gettng ready to exercice it. Keep the faith kids and great thread Alan!

As a retired educator all what I have in retirement benifits I owe to unions and the people in unions that came before me. But very sadly times are changing.

During very difficult negotiations we did not do the "sick out" or in any way disrupt learning. The most we did, was stop all the many ways we volunteer our time and the many "extra" things we do.

The mechanics with their slowdown can try to justify that it is the only way to get what they want and get the company and the public's attention. Well, they got my attention. I am very angry! They have achieved their goal of bitting the hand that feeds them. The disruption they are causing daily in thousands of people's lives is unjustified in any circumstances.

I have read them.. HOWEVER, I don't think returning for a maintence issue is inhertenly WRONG! LOL! Maybe it's just me, but I would rather be ALIVE to complain then DEAD becasue someone ignored an issue??? I guess you figure all maintenace is automatically a "ruse" and should be ignored???

The OP did not indicate that the original flight was delayed prior to discovery of the issue or how long the delay was... That would have been valid complaints, but automatically assuming that this was a ploy would be scary!

Being in "Senior Management at that", I feel petrified to tell you that your guestbook on your personal website consists of spam links. And, it's fascinating to hear that your son's step-father looks like Manson. But please, keep up the high level mentorship, showing us the way to a higher skill set. I hang on every word.

Personal attacks are not "cool" on boards where adults post.

The world is smaller...and yet there's much work to do
 

Alan, first of all, thanks for your insights. It's appreciated.

The world is a scary place right now. Things that were always assumed turned out to be anything put guaranteed.

If you read through many of the responses in just FT, you see that even though the industries are diverse, the common concerns are there.

I posted in another link that the core problem with this comes down to agreements made in a different place in a much different time. Unions asked for way too much, and damn if they didn't get it. Only thing more stupid than asking was management giving it. Both sides end up losing. So, NW is in a place that many others are also in.

Clearly, it's time for a change. It should be obvious to both management and labor that this is going to happen, but unfortunately it will probably be later than sooner and it will certainly be about getting the best position and therefore the best leverage. How foolish. Anyone that remembers Eastern knows that I am talking about.

The focis for all has to be serving the customer base. That's where the revenue stream starts. "But what about my family - I can't afford to ay for health care" the union employee may cry - or "I can't make it on $80,000 a year". You'll end up paying for it or not having it if the company disappears. Find ways to make your company successful and then share in the rewards.

Don't think for a moment that the unions are totally at fault here. Company CEOs that take $50 million dollar salaries set a bad example that merely inflames the labor side to ask "what's in it for me?"

SWA does it by team. When will others see that only if they let go of the past, can they embrace the future?

i agree this is getting ridiculous...
if the issue wasn't so important i would find this whole thread hilarious as it was started by 'bottom line'... someone's opinion. a plane was delayed... omg, that never happens. unless the aircraft needs maintenance. however, an IT 'senior manager' and followers that buy into this epiphany, it seems, can see through this airplane repair scheme. it's obviously an insidious plan initiated by scurrilous mechanics to:
a) bring NW to it's knees
b) extort NW for more $$
c) drive NW into bankruptcy
d) all the above
because... an IT 'senior manager' say's 'I don't buy it'. huh? well then it must be true... those mechanics are probably calling in the repairs themselves, oh wait... someone actually on the plane has to call in a problem. i guess that's where the pilot's and FA's conspire with the mechanics.
are you kidding? my hope is that if you had any clue on how an aircraft maintenence program worked you would be commenting on how safe air travel is and be glad someone is making sure your 'ride' stays at 35k feet when it's supposed to instead of begrudging a highly trained mechanic, FA, and pilot from making an hourly wage.
ask all the survivors from BA toronto last week how happy they were to have trained flight attendants helping them off a burning aircraft.
advocating outsourcing. hello... let's just put some walmart workers (they could use the extra hours) or some TSA personnel in charge of overhauling those jet engines. remember, if they're not fulltime they get no bennies.

whew...so

from where i stand (sit) i see this comment as reasonable,
from carol:
What don't you buy??? I guess in your world the pilot should have assumed it was a mechanics ploy and taken off?? NOT in my world.
I have been on LOTS of planes that had to return to the gate and none of them were during a labor dispute so it happens!


ya gotta love the logic of this followers response:

Carol, if you assume that everything that's going on is legitimate, you have only one of two conclusions to draw:

1) NW mechanics are totally incompetent, and cannot keep planes maintained to be in the air, and the FAA should serious look t grounding the airline,

or,

2) NW's fleet is in such bad shape that, despite the best efforts of the mechanics, the airline clearly cannot operate in a reasonable fashion -- and the FAA should seriously look at grounding the airline.

i'm gonna go crazy and suggest there might be a, oh i don't know, a couple of other conclusions... like my top 10:
1) the airplane was broken
2) air traffic control
3) repair parts unavailable
4) boeing sucks
5) airbus sucks
6) weather, schedule, medical emergency (that's really 3 conclusions)
7) FAA rules
8) NW doesn't want their airplanes to crash and burn (it makes them hard to sell)
9) NW doesn't want their pax to die
10) mechanics doing their job

:rolleyes:

no disrespect here... just please comment on what you know not 'agenda of the day' :)

saintd, is your shift key broken? :)

shift key is ok..... bad habits. my thoughts go faster than i can operate this keyboard. seemed like i was saving a step years ago, sorry.

Last year I would have said a shutdown would have killed any airline, then US had their Christmas baggage meltdown and DL had their (specifically ComAir) massive cancellations, but most passengers came back with the next fare sale and all was well. Apparently the almightly dollar causes people to forget previous negative experiences. (And I'm a whole-hearted capitalist, so I'm not making a smart remark about a dollar.)

I think some of the hesitation with doing anything under agreement between the NW mechanics and executive staff stems back to previous negotiations. Apparently there was an agreement for labor concessions that also involved NWAC stock and guaranteed buyback at a certain price several years later as partial compensation for the wage reductions. When time came for NW to repurchase the stock at that guaranteed price (since by then the price had fallen below the guarantee) they refused to purchase it and it had to go to court. Here's AMFA's position on the issue:

http://www.amfa33.org/Legislative/pr...eases/8103.htm

On top of that, the mechanics have been hit by layoffs ostensibly related to 9/11, Iraq, SARS, and at least one other instance, pushing anyone with under 20 years of seniority out of the airline. (Yet, some other airlines are hiring mechanics, including NW Airlink carriers.) For Iraq, 30% of the mechanics were laid off but only 20 planes came out of service. To deal with the reduced coverage, heavy maintenance on planes was likely delayed and those planes just parked instead. That, I don't know for sure, but when we've been seeing recalls on pilots and flight crew, but layoffs from the mechanics side it doesn't seem to balance properly.

I'm usually on the business side of these issues, but having discussed this at length with a NW mechanic and watching the various activities at NW and other airlines, it really doesn't seem like the bargaining is truly in good faith by either side in many of these issues. The company uses the heavy hand to reduce headcount and salaries, and the union stands obstinant refusing to give anything at all. They've got to figure out how to work together some more and all be reasonable, but I'm not sure it can be done any more with the caustic interaction between groups.

The unions won the suit, BUT, NWA is cannot legally pay back until they are in a positive cash-flow situation. In the meantime...all of the employees who held onto the stock continues to earn interest (also part of the deal with the give-back in the 90's). All the employees who still hold stock will make out like BANDITS when NWA is finally able to pay up.

It seems as if NWA has figured out exactly how much they need to get back from each labor group in order to survive (or at least compete with United), and will not budge from that spot.

:rolleyes:

You had me, right up to that point where you decided that all the other reports of significant and multiple delays lately didn't matter and the entire world consisted of just this thread.

I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks that NW is, systemwide, delivering right now, is taking an verly optimistic viewpoint.

And in the end, all it does it drive away business.

Steve

ROTFL (Rolling on the floor laughing)...
 

Great feedback! ^ Please keep it coming! :)

I have been trying to relate my recent career challenges to those now being experienced by NW mechanics. I wanted to establish my empathy for them, given that a position that I held for almost 6 years was slated to be shipped off to India in the fall of 2003. There was little or nothing I could do about that, but I could (and did) take proactive measures to manage my own career.

I think the NW mechanics should do the same. They should knock off all of the flight delay strong arming tactics and make sure that their skills are good enough to be retained by NW to do the work, or to perhaps help manage the new vendors in Singapore and other areas who will be taking over most of the major engine repair work. That would be a sign that they recognize the world has changed around them and they elected to take the high road.

-Alan

What's In A Reputation?
 

I believe that many PAX out there just go for the cheapest fair. But there are many who also remember their experiences from the past, and factor this into their decision on who to fly. I have more than one friend who fly markets where NW is a choice, but not an exclusive. I have had to take on the role of NW Champion with these friends to encourage them to give NW their business. Why? They had a bad experience from the mid to late 90's during key moments during NW's history -- such as 7 years ago during the pilot's strike. I too had my issues with NW during the late 1990's, especially with the baggage handlers at MSP and the FA's. But things have improved. I know it because I fly often. Some of my friends (who have not flown NW since the late 1990's) still hold NW in contempt for their bad experiences during the same time. I think NW mechanics (and collaborating pilots) are helping to put the NW reputation right back were it started from at the end of the 1990's. :rolleyes:

-Alan

Hey guys...

From my experiences as an airline employee, I can all but guarantee you that the other labor groups are doing nothing more than paying lip service in support of the mechanics. If NW goes belly up as the result of a strike by the mechs, EVERYBODY will be looking for another job... at the bottom of somebody else's pay scale, and probably at a regional carrier (i.e., mesaba/pinnacle/comair/etc). For EVERYBODY this will mean drastic wage cuts. The rampers will be lucky to see $10/hr, the mechs $12/hr, the pilots $22/hr, FA's at $18/hr (the last two only "work" 1000 hours in a year, so that wage translates to $22,000 and $18,000 annually). Working as an express employee, my job was at the whim of way too many labor groups. ANYBODY at UAL, *AND* anybody at my own company. Basically those other guys wanted what they wanted, and would I support them in the event of a job action? ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, NOT. If my airline failed to operate for a day, I WOULD NOT BE PAID and the THEIR UNION WOULD DO NOTHING TO HELP ME. I was non-union, so there was never any chance of "we got your back later."

Pilots and FA's WANT to stay on schedule. They do not get paid an hourly wage and overtime like many employees do. With some exceptions, if they get back to their base late, that is time that comes out of their pocket, so to speak. Time not spent with family, or, if they commute, possibly missing their last flight to their real home.