TOPIC: Strike as a General Issue >> Your Thoughts
 

Okay. This is getting ridiculous. My mother-in-law's flight from SEA to MSP has been delayed tonight, because the plane had to return to the gate for maintenance. Bottom line, I don't buy it.

I work in IT for a large, fortune 50 company. Cut backs and budget cuts have been a way of life for my company since I joined in 1997. NW mechanics, pilots, FA's and baggage handlers -- you are not alone. NW mechanics: Don't expect all of your PAX to get out the violin or to pull up a chair while you're singin' the blues during this dispute. :td: Many of us have also been impacted in our careers by progress and by the world economy. I myself have been working away from my family for the last 18 months (which is why your company benefits, I fly back to MSP from SEA every other weekend to see my wife and children). Why? My Minnesota job was offshored. But, I have survived and have moved into a higher paying management position in my company, but at at a price. None the less, I am going to leave my company to get back to MSP and my family, but I will be able to come back and get a Director's position instead of a manager's position because of what happened.

NW Mechanics, you are caught up in the same game. The world has changed. Your industry has changed. Wake up and smell the coffee! If I were the head of NW, most of the major repair work would already be done in Singapore and by 3rd party vendors that have a better economy of scale. NW owes you nothing. You owe yourselves everything. Buck up, little campers! :rolleyes: Get trained in a different position at NW, or get out.


In the end, I am looking to (and blaming) the mechanics during these work slowdowns, not NW or NW management. :td: Capiche?

-Alan

P.S. To the Pilots Who Enable These Slowdowns: Shame on you too. You should be forced to give back any concessions you won over during your strike 7 years ago. I am shunning you as well... :td:

P.P.S. To the Head of the FA's: Shame on you as well, for not comitting to recommending that your rank and file cross the picket line if a mechanic strike occurs. :td:

This might have been legitimate. Or it might have been a "slowdown" or "work to rule" situation by the mechanics. We'll never know.

Similar problem at UAL lately. Ever since their idiot union started talking about CHAOS, flight delays due to crew issues are suspected of being CHAOS actions when maybe they are just crew issues due to weather/maintenance/canceled flights, whatever. We'll never know.

Poopdeck90210, I agree wholeheartedly (another IT guy here). Suck it up, buttercup (mechanics). Like it or not, the world economy has changed. Pretending that we're still living in the 70s and 80s doesn't make it so.

I agree also... Great post Poopdeck!!!

Couldn't agree more.

According to the Detroit Free Press, the average mechanics salary is $70,000. With overtime and various certification bonuses, it comes out to over $80,000 per mechanic. That's a whopping 60% greater than the average household income in the US.

The mechanics better start getting reasonable soon because its just not hard to find others willing to work for much less than that.

What don't you buy??? I guess in your world the pilot should have assumed it was a mechanics ploy and taken off?? NOT in my world.
Now if the repair takes 8 hours THEN you have a complaint, but I have been on LOTS of planes that had to return to the gate and none of them were during a labor dispute so it happens!

IMO, the rule of the new economy is:
You can be replaced*.

*99% of the time. So you'd better either find that 1% job or develop yourself to the 1% point where they can't replace you. Otherwise it's likely just a matter of time.

The voice of reason. Thank goodness there a few of you left who can see past their own situations.

Nice call, nwaflygirl. ^

I agree...I do not believe this is about pilot sympathy. Its the pilots life too that they have to think about. And the pilots have given back already.

See past OUR own situations? Um - pot, kettle, black, anyone?

The ual crew delays is not flight attendant CHAOS - it is mostly due to pilot shortage and weather. The weather delays combined with busy Summer season have the active pilots maxed out. Company doesn't want to bring back more furloughed pilots b/c the schedule will slow down in the Fall and pilot crew staffing will level out. Had a captain tell me the other day that they were selectively cancelling some flights in/out of ORD b/c they didn't have enough pilots.

God, I wish my mother-in-law's flight was cancelled. ;)

Unlike mechanics, IT folks have been overpaid for years. This is coming from a MCSE, RHCE, & CCNP. How could we pay a no experience junior college grad 50K in 1999? Then pay for MS, Compaq, IBM, or Born, tech support above - makes me want to yell. :mad:

:-: disclosue here: I did one router fix consultant job for NWA in 1998.

I agree with your points but not your (or the The Toliet Free Press) facts. One of the worse papers in America.

The average NWA mechanic makes about $54,500 according to NWA. The $70,000 is probaly top end of the scale.

According to US Census and taxes. The average Minnesota HH income was $50,157 and $53,265 in Michigan (2002 year numbers) where most of the mechanics work.

We have very similar alphabet soup...

While I agree wholeheartedly that we were once overpaid...the dot-com collapse IMO pretty much ended that. Salaries dropped, jobs were sent offshore. Which is pretty much exactly what's going on now with LCCs. The NW mechanics (and FAs soon) are going to go through the same thing that we IT people did 4-5 years ago. The only difference is that we weren't unionized.

The end result is the same...it's how you get there that's the rub. Mechanics, FAs, etc. can either accept that the world has changed, deal with reality and try to make the best of it...or they can whine, scream and complain. In the end, their pay, benefits, etc. will all be reduced regardless of which path they choose. But do they get there with grace, or do they make themselves a complete PITA for the flying public?

Read The Other Posts
 

Carol, respectfully, in my opinion, you write as if you have not read the many, many posts on this board from the last month that deal with blatent work slow downs on NW. If you did read them, it is my opinion that you seem to have dismissed the lot of these incidents as legitimate. I think if you look at the number of complaints posted about mechanical delays over the past two years on this board, you will see that there has been a huge, quantum spike during the last month. Then you need to ask yourself, as a lot of us already have... WHY? :confused:

Of all of the recent posts regarding mechanical failures during the last month, the one I loved the most was this post on cabin door pressurization issues.

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455432

I have flown almost 500K miles since 1987 and have yet to encounter this one... :rolleyes:

@:-) Respectully, I think you should re-read some of the other posts on this board from the last month and see these slowdowns for what they are.

-Alan

I just do not understand their threat. Go onstrike with a company that lost 250 million last quarter and is loosing money hand over fist. If they strike, the airline can not recover. They have enough pressure, I think as others have said the world has changed.

IMHO, if the unions cause NW to stop operations for even a day, it will never restart.

There are a lot of people playing with fire. When the former NW employees are all on the unemployment lines, the remaining legacy carrier employees will be smiling and thanking them as they cash their pay checks.

Wake up! Midnight is right around the corner.

Hyperbole ... The loss won't be nearly great as one might think. They'll save a ton of money on fuel & labor.

Carol, if you assume that everything that's going on is legitimate, you have only one of two conclusions to draw:

1) NW mechanics are totally incompetent, and cannot keep planes maintained to be in the air, and the FAA should serious look t grounding the airline,

or,

2) NW's fleet is in such bad shape that, despite the best efforts of the mechanics, the airline clearly cannot operate in a reasonable fashion -- and the FAA should seriously look at grounding the airline.

Mechanics being behind the slowdown is actually FAR better than the other possibilities given the systemwide issues that have been seen lately.

Steve

Ummm - I'm not a mechanic. I'm stuck in the middle of this crap just like you.

And it is the current mechanics choice whether the replacement workers get the new pay, or the current union members.

The end result is fairly certain. And if I was a NW mechanic, I'd have resumes out there or be going to school for my upcoming career change.

Wow!!!
 

Well written Steve! I couldn't have said it better myself! ^ :D

-Alan

We all know there are usually at least three sides to a story: your side, my side and the right side.

But this is much deeper. While the mechanics are far from having absolutely clean hands, the fact remains that NW has asked its workers for cuts and concessions with nothing in return -- no participating in decisionmaking, no equality of sacrafice from management and certainly no access to the plan to turn the airline around (if there is one). NW is asking worker to essentially buy a pig in a poke and they should draw the line in the sand. If they really need concessions to keep the airline afloat and turn it around, then the airline should have come to workers in a spirit of collaboration and cooperation. It did not.

There are some serious questions about NW management. Not just for what I stated above, but also for the mismanagement to date. NW wants to eliminate thousands of mechanic jobs. Does this mean NW has too many mechanics? If so, how did that happen? If the mechanics are overpaid, how did THAT happen?

"We all know there are usually at least three sides to a story: your side, my side and the right side"

More accurately:
Understanding is a three edged sword: There is your side, their side, and the truth-Ambassador Kosh of the Vorlon Empire

Good Form
 

Good points -- all of them.

Being in management for a Fortune 50 company, and Senior Management at that, I can tell you that I have never come to work with some fiendish plot to leave out all of the people who work in my organization. I do not think it is much different for NW management either. But, being in management, you are often put in a position to either piss off your employees, your stockholders, and/or your customers. It is hard to make a utopian place and have everything you do be a "win-win-win" in this regard.

My issue with the NW mechanics is not pay, but form. I am asking them to take the high road and have good form during this period of negotiation, concession, and even dispute with NW management. By facilititating work slowdowns - NW mechanics are, to be verbose, pissing and crapping in their own bed. As anyone knows, this is something you just don't do. I agree with the previous replies to this post; the mechanics actions run the risk of taking down NW and, consequently, the mechanics very own jobs. Unfortunately, they do not have the cushy parachutes and retention bonuses that NW management does. And those bonuses DO exist; I have received these myself for my company as a Senior IT Manager in an area deemed as "business critical" by Executives.

At my company, the IT System Administrators had the opportunity in the fall of 2003 to wipe out or throw out the root passwords for all of the computer servers which run our business after they found out, at the 12th hour, that their jobs were supposed to be offshored to Bangalore India. But did they? No. They were professional during a period of high frustration, uncertainty, and -- Senior Management greed. Results: They retained their jobs and the same Senior Management is either gone, or in a position to have to prove to the SEC that the jobs were not offshored {yes -- there is justice in this world}.

I am asking the NW Mechanics (and Pilots and FAs) for good form during this period. Whatever can be negotiated with NW Senior Management -- go for it.

-Alan

I agree with Alan that employees cheapen their cause when they stray off the high road.

Those of us old enough to remember the civil rights movement of the 1950's and 1960's will note that the protestors generally sought to retain moral authority, a very powerful weapon.

Wise words. Thank you Alan! ^

Kinda true...but the rest of us have a choice on who's equipment we fly, not that we want to be on someone else's equipment......I wish you guys/gals truely in the middle the best of luck

Great points Dick, except everything I've read over the years says NWA has been talking with all unions for the past few years about give backs, the unions have been extremely slow to move so while I agree there is a lack of collaboration I'm not sure it's on NWA's part....they are not to a point that they can no longer wait to correct the mistakes of yesterday/yesteryears

As always Poopdeck balanced and fair, it really is a tough situation. Both sides are in posture mode with the passengers in a tough spot in between. Here is hoping that the Red Tail pulls through. I know as I work in a pretty demanding service business myself that "management" and "workers" are constantly sniping. However, that does not change the fact that the client is king and/or queen, as the case may be. It is especially noteworthy that someone like Poopdeck because he is the kind of guy that will take time to praise those at NWA when praise should be given (as is evidenced by several threads on this board!. Folks have a choice and as is evidenced by discussions here are gettng ready to exercice it. Keep the faith kids and great thread Alan!

As a retired educator all what I have in retirement benifits I owe to unions and the people in unions that came before me. But very sadly times are changing.

During very difficult negotiations we did not do the "sick out" or in any way disrupt learning. The most we did, was stop all the many ways we volunteer our time and the many "extra" things we do.

The mechanics with their slowdown can try to justify that it is the only way to get what they want and get the company and the public's attention. Well, they got my attention. I am very angry! They have achieved their goal of bitting the hand that feeds them. The disruption they are causing daily in thousands of people's lives is unjustified in any circumstances.

I have read them.. HOWEVER, I don't think returning for a maintence issue is inhertenly WRONG! LOL! Maybe it's just me, but I would rather be ALIVE to complain then DEAD becasue someone ignored an issue??? I guess you figure all maintenace is automatically a "ruse" and should be ignored???

The OP did not indicate that the original flight was delayed prior to discovery of the issue or how long the delay was... That would have been valid complaints, but automatically assuming that this was a ploy would be scary!

Being in "Senior Management at that", I feel petrified to tell you that your guestbook on your personal website consists of spam links. And, it's fascinating to hear that your son's step-father looks like Manson. But please, keep up the high level mentorship, showing us the way to a higher skill set. I hang on every word.

Personal attacks are not "cool" on boards where adults post.

The world is smaller...and yet there's much work to do
 

Alan, first of all, thanks for your insights. It's appreciated.

The world is a scary place right now. Things that were always assumed turned out to be anything put guaranteed.

If you read through many of the responses in just FT, you see that even though the industries are diverse, the common concerns are there.

I posted in another link that the core problem with this comes down to agreements made in a different place in a much different time. Unions asked for way too much, and damn if they didn't get it. Only thing more stupid than asking was management giving it. Both sides end up losing. So, NW is in a place that many others are also in.

Clearly, it's time for a change. It should be obvious to both management and labor that this is going to happen, but unfortunately it will probably be later than sooner and it will certainly be about getting the best position and therefore the best leverage. How foolish. Anyone that remembers Eastern knows that I am talking about.

The focis for all has to be serving the customer base. That's where the revenue stream starts. "But what about my family - I can't afford to ay for health care" the union employee may cry - or "I can't make it on $80,000 a year". You'll end up paying for it or not having it if the company disappears. Find ways to make your company successful and then share in the rewards.

Don't think for a moment that the unions are totally at fault here. Company CEOs that take $50 million dollar salaries set a bad example that merely inflames the labor side to ask "what's in it for me?"

SWA does it by team. When will others see that only if they let go of the past, can they embrace the future?

i agree this is getting ridiculous...
if the issue wasn't so important i would find this whole thread hilarious as it was started by 'bottom line'... someone's opinion. a plane was delayed... omg, that never happens. unless the aircraft needs maintenance. however, an IT 'senior manager' and followers that buy into this epiphany, it seems, can see through this airplane repair scheme. it's obviously an insidious plan initiated by scurrilous mechanics to:
a) bring NW to it's knees
b) extort NW for more $$
c) drive NW into bankruptcy
d) all the above
because... an IT 'senior manager' say's 'I don't buy it'. huh? well then it must be true... those mechanics are probably calling in the repairs themselves, oh wait... someone actually on the plane has to call in a problem. i guess that's where the pilot's and FA's conspire with the mechanics.
are you kidding? my hope is that if you had any clue on how an aircraft maintenence program worked you would be commenting on how safe air travel is and be glad someone is making sure your 'ride' stays at 35k feet when it's supposed to instead of begrudging a highly trained mechanic, FA, and pilot from making an hourly wage.
ask all the survivors from BA toronto last week how happy they were to have trained flight attendants helping them off a burning aircraft.
advocating outsourcing. hello... let's just put some walmart workers (they could use the extra hours) or some TSA personnel in charge of overhauling those jet engines. remember, if they're not fulltime they get no bennies.

whew...so

from where i stand (sit) i see this comment as reasonable,
from carol:
What don't you buy??? I guess in your world the pilot should have assumed it was a mechanics ploy and taken off?? NOT in my world.
I have been on LOTS of planes that had to return to the gate and none of them were during a labor dispute so it happens!


ya gotta love the logic of this followers response:

Carol, if you assume that everything that's going on is legitimate, you have only one of two conclusions to draw:

1) NW mechanics are totally incompetent, and cannot keep planes maintained to be in the air, and the FAA should serious look t grounding the airline,

or,

2) NW's fleet is in such bad shape that, despite the best efforts of the mechanics, the airline clearly cannot operate in a reasonable fashion -- and the FAA should seriously look at grounding the airline.

i'm gonna go crazy and suggest there might be a, oh i don't know, a couple of other conclusions... like my top 10:
1) the airplane was broken
2) air traffic control
3) repair parts unavailable
4) boeing sucks
5) airbus sucks
6) weather, schedule, medical emergency (that's really 3 conclusions)
7) FAA rules
8) NW doesn't want their airplanes to crash and burn (it makes them hard to sell)
9) NW doesn't want their pax to die
10) mechanics doing their job

:rolleyes:

no disrespect here... just please comment on what you know not 'agenda of the day' :)

saintd, is your shift key broken? :)

shift key is ok..... bad habits. my thoughts go faster than i can operate this keyboard. seemed like i was saving a step years ago, sorry.

Last year I would have said a shutdown would have killed any airline, then US had their Christmas baggage meltdown and DL had their (specifically ComAir) massive cancellations, but most passengers came back with the next fare sale and all was well. Apparently the almightly dollar causes people to forget previous negative experiences. (And I'm a whole-hearted capitalist, so I'm not making a smart remark about a dollar.)

I think some of the hesitation with doing anything under agreement between the NW mechanics and executive staff stems back to previous negotiations. Apparently there was an agreement for labor concessions that also involved NWAC stock and guaranteed buyback at a certain price several years later as partial compensation for the wage reductions. When time came for NW to repurchase the stock at that guaranteed price (since by then the price had fallen below the guarantee) they refused to purchase it and it had to go to court. Here's AMFA's position on the issue:

http://www.amfa33.org/Legislative/pr...eases/8103.htm

On top of that, the mechanics have been hit by layoffs ostensibly related to 9/11, Iraq, SARS, and at least one other instance, pushing anyone with under 20 years of seniority out of the airline. (Yet, some other airlines are hiring mechanics, including NW Airlink carriers.) For Iraq, 30% of the mechanics were laid off but only 20 planes came out of service. To deal with the reduced coverage, heavy maintenance on planes was likely delayed and those planes just parked instead. That, I don't know for sure, but when we've been seeing recalls on pilots and flight crew, but layoffs from the mechanics side it doesn't seem to balance properly.

I'm usually on the business side of these issues, but having discussed this at length with a NW mechanic and watching the various activities at NW and other airlines, it really doesn't seem like the bargaining is truly in good faith by either side in many of these issues. The company uses the heavy hand to reduce headcount and salaries, and the union stands obstinant refusing to give anything at all. They've got to figure out how to work together some more and all be reasonable, but I'm not sure it can be done any more with the caustic interaction between groups.