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Old Apr 6, 2009, 9:22 pm
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by geojet01
To rentalguy:

I had hoped to get answers to a couple of questions left hanging on another thread, so perhaps it's best to pose them again here. I'm asking yet again because your responses so far have failed to directly address serious questions about recent declines at National. Let me point out that these are very real experiences and concerns that others here have also complained about.

In your previous responses, you have exaggerated my points to an absurd extreme to suggest that these questions and complaints are unfair or nitpicking, that they don't take the challenging business climate into account or, worst of all, that they suggest customers who complain are just being greedy or feel entitled to excessive compensation.

Here's what you said, but neither I nor others ever really complained about:



Actually, I and others have simply wondered -- and I ask again here -- why National has recently begun to try to pass off Chevy Malibus and similar smaller cars as "fullsize" upgrades for its supposedly valued Executive Selection "loyalty" customers? This is expected to please customers who have long been offered Impalas, for example -- WE'RE NOT TALKING LUXURY CARS!

Another question: Since you raise it, isn't it interesting that as recently as this year I have seen banners in your shuttle buses promoting satellite radio availability, and no asterisks pointed to fine print that said, "If XM wants to extend the free trial in the vehicles..." In fact, there was also no fine print limiting satellite radios exclusively to LUXURY vehicles. And if you claim this isn't a downgrade in service that has long been offered, let me point out that when satellite radio was first promoted as a reason to rent from National, this is how it was advertised with great fanfare in a news release:

"National and Alamo customers can receive XM Radio for no additional charge on all 2005 model Chevrolet Cobalts, Pontiac G6s, and Buick LaCrosses in the two brands' fleets. The two rental brands also are offering XM for no extra charge on select 2005 Chevrolet Monte Carlos, Chevrolet Impalas and Pontiac Bonnevilles."

Finally, let me try clarifying a question that got distorted into something that I didn't say:



No, frankly, as I've already said: I don't begrudge National a REASONABLE rate increase. Perhaps like banks and many other "bigger-is-better" corporations, Enterprise has now become overleveraged from buying Vanguard and expects us to pay the bill. What I'd like you to address directly, though, is whether a jump of over 100% in your best "last-minute special" advertised rates isn't really outrageous? What else do you call it when the advertised "special" rate FAR MORE THAN DOUBLES from $170/wk to $399/wk midsize at Burbank, or when daily rates for ECONOMY AND COMPACT rentals look like this:



I really do think it's time, rentalguy, that you stop using that line claiming rates haven't gone up in 25 years. Unless perhaps National is trying to make up for 25 years in just the past 25 days.
Geojet,

I think I've answered your questions honestly and truthfully in previous threads but I'll touch on a couple of points that you make. With respect to XM or SIRIUS, we do not purchase additional monthly subscriptions. Whatever the manufacturers "free trial" period is, thats what is offered. And yes, cars are being kept longer on the fleet so there are probably more units with expired radio service than in the past. With respect to your question about Malibus, they have always been classified as FULL SZIE vehicles, this hasn't been a recent change. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Malibus are classified as FULL SIZE CARS by all rental companies.

Finally, regarding rates. I stand by my comment that rates havent changed in 25 years. DO they go up and down based on supply and demand in certain markets? YES they do. You mentioned your airport in California that rates are almost double. They may very well be. THIS WEEK. That could change tomorrow or next week. Perhaps there is something happening in your marketplace that is driving rates up. Here is a list off the "last minute specials on the National website. SUV's in Santa Barbara for $175/week. Again, the rates that you metioned were a "snap shot" of a particular time period.

WEEK DAY
California Santa Barbara Airport Compact $134.00
$18.95

California Santa Barbara Airport Midsize $149.00
$19.95

California Santa Barbara Airport Fullsize $169.00
$20.95

California Santa Barbara Airport Midsize SUV $174.00
$37.95

California Santa Barbara Airport Minivan $214.00
$38.95

California Santa Barbara Airport Premium $179.00
$44.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Economy $134.00
$18.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Compact $134.00
$18.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Midsize $149.00
$19.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Fullsize $169.00
$20.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Premium $179.00
$30.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Midsize SUV $184.00
$32.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Standard SUV $204.00
$33.95

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Fullsize SUV $214.00
$38.00

Colorado Colorado Springs Airport Minivan $214.00
$38.95

Colorado Denver Airport Economy $134.00
$18.95

Colorado Denver Airport Compact $134.00
$18.95

Colorado Denver Airport Midsize $149.00
$19.95

Colorado Denver Airport Fullsize $169.00
$20.95

Colorado Denver Airport Premium $179.00
$30.95

Colorado Denver Airport Midsize SUV $184.00
$32.95

Colorado Denver Airport Standard SUV $204.00
$33.95

Colorado Denver Airport Fullsize SUV $214.00
$38.00

Colorado Denver Airport Minivan $214.00

Florida Tallahassee Airport Economy $134.00
$18.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Compact $134.00
$18.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Midsize $149.00
$19.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Fullsize $169.00
$20.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Premium $179.00
$24.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Midsize SUV $174.00
$32.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Standard SUV $199.00
$33.95

Florida Tallahassee Airport Minivan $214.00
$38.95

Florida West Palm Beach Airport Economy $409.95

Illinois Chicago Midway Airport Compact $134.00
$18.95

Illinois Chicago Midway Airport Midsize $149.00
$19.95

Illinois Chicago Midway Airport Fullsize $169.00
$20.95

Illinois Chicago Midway Airport Midsize SUV $174.00
$32.95

Illinois Chicago Midway Airport Standard SUV $199.00
$33.95

Illinois Chicago O'Hare Airport Compact $134.00
$18.95

Illinois Chicago O'Hare Airport Midsize $149.00
$19.95

Illinois Chicago O'Hare Airport Fullsize $169.00
$20.95

Illinois Chicago O'Hare Airport Midsize SUV $174.00
$32.95

Illinois Chicago O'Hare Airport Standard SUV $199.00
$33.95

And before you jump all over me, YES there are rates in other parts of the country substantially more expensive. The rates do fluctuate but essentially they are unchanged from 25 yrs ago.

Thank you.
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Old Apr 6, 2009, 11:27 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by rentalguy
With respect to your question about Malibus, they have always been classified as FULL SZIE vehicles, this hasn't been a recent change. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Malibus are classified as FULL SIZE CARS by all rental companies.
You are incorrect. I have rented a Chevy Malibu at least twice previously under a midsize car reservation. I do not rent (or will accept) anything larger than a midsize, and the Malibus were not given to me as an upgrade.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 9:16 am
  #18  
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RentalGuy's generalization on the Malibu may have been a bit broad. Malibus may not always and everywhere be classed as full size, but some U.S. rental firms have classed them as full size for a long time. Avis was renting 4-cyl Malibus as full size even back in 1998, for example, and Malibus of that generation were not class-competitive as they are today.

I am not enthusiastic about the pervasive substituion of 4-cyl EPA-classed midsize cars for the large-size V-6 car (Chevy Impala) National identifies as its full size standard. Smaller, cheaper, and less power does not equal SIMILAR in my book. I'd be a bit more tolerant if National could go for premium trim classes & equipment on midsize cars rented as full size, but time after time the Altimas, Camrys, G6s and Malibus I find on the ES are base trims.

I am happy for knowledgeable National staff to post here but I'm also aware that we will see an element of corporate spin from time to time. Some may be unconscious; some may be job-preserving. I can filter it for my needs. I suggest that civil tones and thoughtful questions will give everyone best value and satisfaction.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 9:55 am
  #19  
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Originally Posted by 3Cforme
I am happy for knowledgeable National staff to post here but I'm also aware that we will see an element of corporate spin from time to time. Some may be unconscious; some may be job-preserving. I can filter it for my needs. I suggest that civil tones and thoughtful questions will give everyone best value and satisfaction.
Thank you for this comment!!!

The "previous" thread ended up being locked becuase it had definitely passed "uncivil" and bordered on personal attacks. Keep in mind that even the most "open" and highly regarded official corporate Lurker here on FT will rarely say much that's critical of the company. rentalguy and Pam are also (to my knowledge) not official lurkers and many companies don't like their employees posting.

Please keep this thread (and all future ones) civil.

peteropny - moderator - National
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 10:09 am
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by 3Cforme
I am not enthusiastic about the pervasive substituion of 4-cyl EPA-classed midsize cars for the large-size V-6 car (Chevy Impala) National identifies as its full size standard. Smaller, cheaper, and less power does not equal SIMILAR in my book. I'd be a bit more tolerant if National could go for premium trim classes & equipment on midsize cars rented as full size, but time after time the Altimas, Camrys, G6s and Malibus I find on the ES are base trims.
I agree. I find it hard for National to justify a Malibu as a fullsize car when they post the Impala as the sample fullsize. You can kind of get away with use other makes and doing bait and switch, but two from the same company?

The Fusion/Taurus debacle was another one but now new Tauruses are Premium, which I can agree on.

I'm also really not sure how they get away with putting a G6 on Executive Selection when it's clearly a midsize.

The one that gets me was when I got a Jeep Patriot as an SFAR where the example car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Now THAT is stretching it. I'm fearing for my one-way SFAR booking from YYC to YYJ as a Grand Cherokee is about the smallest I can go and still fit all my stuff.....
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 11:40 am
  #21  
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The Impala/Malibu issue is one where I will walk away from my reservation and see what Hertz has available. I'm 6'4" with relatively short legs and a long torso. I can drive a base Impala just fine. A Malibu, even one with nice features, I cannot drive without my head touching the roof while I drive. One pothole, and I'm in a world of trouble.

The Kia Amanti and the Volvo S70 are definitely Premium, but even those are small on headroom because of the sunroof. A base Impala, however, could never realistically be considered a Premium vehicle. I rent from National because I don't mind the base Impala, in the way I didn't mind the circa-2000 Ford Tauruses.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 11:54 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by Tuneman1984
I agree. I find it hard for National to justify a Malibu as a fullsize car when they post the Impala as the sample fullsize. You can kind of get away with use other makes and doing bait and switch, but two from the same company?

The Fusion/Taurus debacle was another one but now new Tauruses are Premium, which I can agree on.

I'm also really not sure how they get away with putting a G6 on Executive Selection when it's clearly a midsize.

The one that gets me was when I got a Jeep Patriot as an SFAR where the example car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Now THAT is stretching it. I'm fearing for my one-way SFAR booking from YYC to YYJ as a Grand Cherokee is about the smallest I can go and still fit all my stuff.....
According to Wikipedia, which I realize isn't an official definition, a mid-size car is one with a wheelbase between 105 inches (2,667 mm) and 110 inches (2,794 mm).

The G6, Saturn Aura, Chevy Malibu all have wheelbases just slightly over the mid-size upper threshold, around 112 inches. So according to one interpretation, they could be full size. The Mitsubishi Galant ought to be a mid-size, as its wheelbase is around 108 inches.

I don't expect my cars to be equipped with leather, sunroof, XM SR, but if they do, it's just icing on the cake.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 4:19 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by rentalguy
Finally, regarding rates. I stand by my comment that rates havent changed in 25 years. DO they go up and down based on supply and demand in certain markets? YES they do. You mentioned your airport in California that rates are almost double. They may very well be. THIS WEEK. That could change tomorrow or next week. Perhaps there is something happening in your marketplace that is driving rates up.
With all due respect, I just can't buy this -- and lately, for several months, I'm literally NOT buying it. I've seen episodes of rate spikes that were clearly event driven or seasonal, and this ain't that. It just ain't. Would you care to offer us a possible explanation of exactly what might be "happening in your marketplace that is driving rates up"? These rates have STEADILY climbed over time, and they have stayed that way for months.

You use all caps to emphasize your point that rates might just be double "THIS WEEK." Well, I first raised this issue back on March 28...

Originally Posted by geojet01
Los Angeles Intl Airport Economy $330.90
Los Angeles Intl Airport Compact $334.90
Los Angeles Intl Airport Midsize $342.90
Los Angeles Intl Airport Fullsize $365.90
Los Angeles Intl Airport Minivan $350.90
Los Angeles Intl Airport Midsize SUV $369.90
Los Angeles Intl Airport Standard SUV $379.90

At other locations, such as Burbank and Long Beach, these "Last Minute Special" midsize rates (which were also routinely $150-$170) have currently skyrocketed to $400!
Still, the latest "Last Minute Specials" effective through April 21 continue to list those $399/wk midsize deep discounts at Burbank. Actually, they've consistently hovered at those heights across Southern California month after month now.

You also choose to ignore the ridiculously high "economy and compact" rates over a cross-section of dates that can be found at PHL and IAD, and still others here who have noticed this trend...

Originally Posted by starflyer
Looks like National is raising rates to $100/day. Here are some sample prices (befores fees and taxes!) for Economy and Compact rentals in PHL and IAD taken from the National web site on March 29:

Tue Apr 28 noon - Wed Apr 29 noon
Economy - PHL: $107.99 IAD: $98.49
Compact - PHL: $109.99 IAD: $98.90

Tue May 26 noon - Wed May 27 noon
Economy - PHL: $107.99 IAD: $98.49
Compact - PHL: $109.99 IAD: $98.90

Tue Jun 23 noon - Wed Jun 24 noon
Economy - PHL: $107.99 IAD: $98.90
Compact - PHL: $109.99 IAD: $99.90

There's no way that rental prices in PHL and IAD have been like this for the past 25 years! Time to look elsewhere.
Originally Posted by Traveling Salesman
I agree week day prices in most places are pushing $75.00 to $90.00 a day in some case I am paying on one way rentals over a $100.00 a day. So I disagree prices have changed over the last 25 years. ... Before any one jumps down my throat this is a personal observation and I rent all over the USA: JFK, MCI, MPH, BOS, IND, RDU to name just a few places.
The fact is, National's rates have shot up in numerous markets across the country. I acknowledge your list of rates that appear to have stayed lower, but without the ability to compare past rates, I don't accept that these prove your point that rates haven't gone up. In fact, I can personally attest that in a number of those markets, rates were even lower than those you post now.

Again, with all due respect, when rates soar by double or even triple in some cases, that's outrageous.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 4:42 pm
  #24  
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Sheesh, I just noticed this one on that "discount" list...

Originally Posted by rentalguy
Florida West Palm Beach Airport Economy $409.95
An ECONOMY car is really being offered IN FLORIDA for $409.95??? Something's wrong here. Where'd this list come from?
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 4:50 pm
  #25  
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Originally Posted by ElmhurstNick
I'm 6'4" with relatively short legs and a long torso. I can drive a base Impala just fine. A Malibu, even one with nice features, I cannot drive without my head touching the roof while I drive. One pothole, and I'm in a world of trouble.
Exactly! I'm also 6'4", so maybe that's why we're more sensitive to this issue than some others.

Originally Posted by drzoidberg
According to Wikipedia, which I realize isn't an official definition, a mid-size car is one with a wheelbase between 105 inches (2,667 mm) and 110 inches (2,794 mm).
Maybe it's time this classification also took headroom into account. For some of us, that's every bit as important as legroom. That's one of the things I've loved about National -- the ability to "try a car on" for size!
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 6:13 pm
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by geojet01
Maybe it's time this classification also took headroom into account. For some of us, that's every bit as important as legroom. That's one of the things I've loved about National -- the ability to "try a car on" for size!
I believe the other measure of class-size is via interior volume; 110 cubic feet (3.11 m3) and 119 cubic feet (3.37 m3) of interior volume for a mid-size car. And according to fuel economy.gov, size classes for cars are determined by interior cargo and passenger volume.

All measurements are in cubic feet.
Minicompact: < 85
Subcompact: 85 - 99
Compact: 100 - 109
Mid-Size: 110 - 119
Large: 120 or more

2009 Chevy Malibu = 95 (interior volume) + 16 (cargo) = 111 = mid-size
2009 Mitsubishi Galant = 101 + 13 = 114 = mid-size
2009 Chevy Impala = 105 + 17 = large
2009 Pontiac G6 = 96 + 14 = 110 = barely mid-size

So that settles it, according to government numbers, the Malibu and Galant and G6 are mid-size cars. Practically however, the mid-size class covers such a wide spectrum of cars that you will have larger mid-size cars (Malibu + Galant) and smaller mid-size cars (G6). I don't have a big problem with National putting Malibus on the ES aisle and calling them full-size, because the boundaries between full/mid-size cars in the rental world is rather nebulous. I'm 6'1", and I've never found headroom to be a big problem with the Malibus.

However, I agree with you that National's letting you try out different cars is a novel aspect of renting with them.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 6:25 pm
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by drzoidberg
I believe the other measure of class-size is via interior volume; 110 cubic feet (3.11 m3) and 119 cubic feet (3.37 m3) of interior volume for a mid-size car. And according to fuel economy.gov, size classes for cars are determined by interior cargo and passenger volume.

All measurements are in cubic feet.
Minicompact: < 85
Subcompact: 85 - 99
Compact: 100 - 109
Mid-Size: 110 - 119
Large: 120 or more

2009 Chevy Malibu = 95 (interior volume) + 16 (cargo) = 111 = mid-size
2009 Mitsubishi Galant = 101 + 13 = 114 = mid-size
2009 Chevy Impala = 105 + 17 = large
2009 Pontiac G6 = 96 + 14 = 110 = barely mid-size

So that settles it, according to government numbers, the Malibu and Galant and G6 are mid-size cars. Practically however, the mid-size class covers such a wide spectrum of cars that you will have larger mid-size cars (Malibu + Galant) and smaller mid-size cars (G6). I don't have a big problem with National putting Malibus on the ES aisle and calling them full-size, because the boundaries between full/mid-size cars in the rental world is rather nebulous. I'm 6'1", and I've never found headroom to be a big problem with the Malibus.

However, I agree with you that National's letting you try out different cars is a novel aspect of renting with them.
I remember when the G6 first came out the EPA nearly called it a compact for that reason. I'm pretty sure the Grand Am was called a compact as well, but I was thought of it as a midsize.

I definitely have to third the idea of getting to try out different cars. That's what drew me to National, after quite some time with Thrifty and nothing but Chryslers and the occasional Ford Focus.

If I'm honest, National does still have quite a variety, even in my area, but it doesn't seem to be what it was a year or two ago. I'm willing to agree that it's probably the economy and cutting the bottom line, but once this thing turns around I'll be watching to see if this isn't a long-term decision.

I know from shopping for a Focus with my girlfriend that the difference between a Focus SE with basic features (air, power locks/windows, ABS) and an SES full-load with leather and moonroof is about $25/mth over 60 months. Needless to say, we're looking for an SES. So if that's the difference at the retail level, I can only imagine it's even closer on fleet pricing. And, since I think JasYHZ mentioned that Ford is one of the few companies left with a rental program in place, why not order a few SEL's or SES's and save them for the Elites?

I am with you Dr. Zoidberg, and I want to make this clear as I think the emotionally-charged debate of the previous thread led some to misinterpret my comments. I don't expect a luxury car for a midsize price. I don't even expect luxury features in my midsize car ro whatever I order. But like you said, when I do get it, it's such a nice treat. In my renting experience, National has been the only one to offer this nice occasional treat. Budget, Avis, Thrifty, and Hertz never did in my experience. So if National stops doing this entirely, they lose a small perk that's kept me renting from them, and drop closer to being in line with everybody else.

Like I say, my hope is that Enterprise isn't "destroying National", and that things can creep back to the way they were once all the economic hoodlum is out of the way.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 6:43 pm
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by Tuneman1984
I remember when the G6 first came out the EPA nearly called it a compact for that reason. I'm pretty sure the Grand Am was called a compact as well, but I was thought of it as a midsize.
Anecdotally speaking, most of the G6s I've seen have primarily been located on the regular Emerald Aisle. I've seen only on a few occasions, a G6 parked on the ES aisle, and that was probably by mistake.

When I see a nice car on the ES aisle, e.g. Impala SS or Malibu LTZ, I throw my luggage into the back, grab the keys, lock the doors, and go back down the aisle to look for better cars. While I realize that might not be fair to other renters, I am a bit obsessed when it comes to finding a nice car on the ES aisle. Anyone else do that? Browsing the aisle is a favorite pasttime of mine.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 6:46 pm
  #29  
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My rental last week was less than stellar as well. Rented couple of times nice Audi from Hertz for less than I would have paid for "executive" Aisle selection at National.

I guess that my main point was that in the past there was always variety on the Executive/Emerald Aisle so that I could choose a car that would fit the purpose of the rental.

We'll see what is the situation at LAX after the Spring break time. I just see myself starting to shop around more than in the past.
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Old Apr 7, 2009, 6:51 pm
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by holtju2
My rental last week was less than stellar as well. Rented couple of times nice Audi from Hertz for less than I would have paid for "executive" Aisle selection at National.

I guess that my main point was that in the past there was always variety on the Executive/Emerald Aisle so that I could choose a car that would fit the purpose of the rental.

We'll see what is the situation at LAX after the Spring break time. I just see myself starting to shop around more than in the past.
Well, if GM goes bankrupt (as some news headlines suggested today), then I guess we may not be seeing any more Malibus on the ES/EA aisles in the future. Not to mention, I'm sure the car rental agencies will probably take a hit as well. Just keep your fingers crossed that the recession won't last much longer.
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