You are the CEO of _____ Airlines.
Dec 17, 2002, 2:54 pm
#31
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1. Focus on domestic and transborder service
2. One-class service, minimum 19" seat width and 34" pitch, power in odd-numbered rows. No food, but beverage/snack service.
3. All tickets one-way, 1-year credit on flights that you call to cancel at least one hour in advance. Maximum of 2 segments per ticket unless in an O-D market where no single connections exist.
4. Four fare classes
- Full coach (Y), miles count as double-status points
- 0-day-advance nonrefundable (H)
- 10-day-advance nonrefundable (Q, standard award class)
- Sale fares
5. Standby requires upcharge to H unless elite. Exit rows available for elites only in advance of airport.
6. Elite qualification is either on miles, segments, or mileage award (!)
6. Lower tier elite
- 50% mileage bonus
- Free standby
- Exit rows available 24 hours in advance
- Awards book in B
- 2 free drinks per flight
- Set of 12 $10 airport food vouchers, non-transferable, 1 stamped for each month, good at any airport restaurant/fast food place
7. Top tier elite
- 100% mileage bonus
- Exit rows available at booking
- Double miles (nonstatus) if they "oversell" the empty middle seat next to you
- Awards book in Y
- Awards include 2nd night free on any rate at a Cat 1-3 or 3rd night free on any rate for Cat 4+ from Hilton/Marriott/Starwood
- Without upgrades... NRSA-style passes good for 6 months, excluding Fri/Sun flights
--- 2 of each set of 4 are transferable
--- First 4 issued at qualifying
--- 4 more every $5000 or 35k miles after qualifying
--- Priority is after regular NRSAs
[This message has been edited by ElmhurstNick (edited 12-17-2002).]
2. One-class service, minimum 19" seat width and 34" pitch, power in odd-numbered rows. No food, but beverage/snack service.
3. All tickets one-way, 1-year credit on flights that you call to cancel at least one hour in advance. Maximum of 2 segments per ticket unless in an O-D market where no single connections exist.
4. Four fare classes
- Full coach (Y), miles count as double-status points
- 0-day-advance nonrefundable (H)
- 10-day-advance nonrefundable (Q, standard award class)
- Sale fares
5. Standby requires upcharge to H unless elite. Exit rows available for elites only in advance of airport.
6. Elite qualification is either on miles, segments, or mileage award (!)
6. Lower tier elite
- 50% mileage bonus
- Free standby
- Exit rows available 24 hours in advance
- Awards book in B
- 2 free drinks per flight
- Set of 12 $10 airport food vouchers, non-transferable, 1 stamped for each month, good at any airport restaurant/fast food place
7. Top tier elite
- 100% mileage bonus
- Exit rows available at booking
- Double miles (nonstatus) if they "oversell" the empty middle seat next to you
- Awards book in Y
- Awards include 2nd night free on any rate at a Cat 1-3 or 3rd night free on any rate for Cat 4+ from Hilton/Marriott/Starwood
- Without upgrades... NRSA-style passes good for 6 months, excluding Fri/Sun flights
--- 2 of each set of 4 are transferable
--- First 4 issued at qualifying
--- 4 more every $5000 or 35k miles after qualifying
--- Priority is after regular NRSAs
[This message has been edited by ElmhurstNick (edited 12-17-2002).]
Dec 17, 2002, 3:13 pm
#32
Join Date: Jun 2002
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ShortyDog:
Does anyone know how much it actually costs the airlines to fly a commercial jet to/from New York/Los Angeles (fuel, fees, salaries, etc.)? I've never seen it broken down into an actual (estimated) dollar amount. </font>
Does anyone know how much it actually costs the airlines to fly a commercial jet to/from New York/Los Angeles (fuel, fees, salaries, etc.)? I've never seen it broken down into an actual (estimated) dollar amount. </font>
I do know that it is standard practice for the airlines to lose money on their median passenger. That is, the fare paid by the passenger who has paid more than half the other people on the plane and less than the other half will usually be less than the cost to fly him.
This is because, until recently, airlines could always count on a couple of walk-up or like fares (the profit on one such fare can erase the cumulative losses of 20 other pax). It isn't working any more, of course, but -- shhh.... -- nobody told the airlines.
Mook
Dec 17, 2002, 4:58 pm
#33
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Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
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For those who wonder why I even brought up this topic, it is because I am stunned by many of the decisions management at the airlines are making when they really need to attract more business and compete better against the lower-fare airlines. I figured a thread consolidated with insightful ideas by some of the airline industry's best customers (with few or no complaints to dilute this thread) would be easier to digest for someone who works at one of the airlines and reads these posts.
Why doesn't anyone at the airlines just ask us what we think needs to be improved? My observation of posts, both here and at other threads, indicates to me that most of us, while we are interested in making flying as palatable for us as possible, still takes into consideration the needs of the airlines to make a profit. I see very few "selfish" frequent flyers at these forums.
Any chance airline representatives will look at the intelligent thought made all of us, grab the attention of upper management and perhaps take positive action for all parties, or is that just hopeless wishful thinking?
Please keep the ideas coming! Someone is bound to listen - I hope!
[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited 12-17-2002).]
Why doesn't anyone at the airlines just ask us what we think needs to be improved? My observation of posts, both here and at other threads, indicates to me that most of us, while we are interested in making flying as palatable for us as possible, still takes into consideration the needs of the airlines to make a profit. I see very few "selfish" frequent flyers at these forums.
Any chance airline representatives will look at the intelligent thought made all of us, grab the attention of upper management and perhaps take positive action for all parties, or is that just hopeless wishful thinking?
Please keep the ideas coming! Someone is bound to listen - I hope!
[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited 12-17-2002).]
Dec 18, 2002, 7:56 am
#35
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Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by H53Epilot:
What ever happened to "Hooter's Airlines?" </font>
What ever happened to "Hooter's Airlines?" </font>
Sorry. Just winging it. Could not resist.
[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited 12-18-2002).]
Dec 18, 2002, 12:11 pm
#36
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Here, there, and everywhere. Hip, hip, so hip to be square.
Posts: 1,122
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Canarsie:
Easy! The FAA did not approve of them shaking their tails!
Sorry. Just winging it. Could not resist.
</font>
Easy! The FAA did not approve of them shaking their tails!
Sorry. Just winging it. Could not resist.
</font>
Dec 19, 2002, 8:26 am
#37
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Join Date: May 1998
Location: Niceville, FL, USA
Posts: 2,793
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Canarsie:
...
Why doesn't anyone at the airlines just ask us what we think needs to be improved
</font>
...
Why doesn't anyone at the airlines just ask us what we think needs to be improved
</font>
This is by FAR a too-intelligent question to be asking when you are dealing with most airlines!
Good on you for asking it, though.
Dec 20, 2002, 6:58 pm
#38
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Mook:
Stop sounding like such a boob, would ya?</font>
Stop sounding like such a boob, would ya?
</font>
[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited 12-20-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited 12-20-2002).]
Dec 20, 2002, 7:10 pm
#39
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by hnechets:
Canarsie--
This is by FAR a too-intelligent question to be asking when you are dealing with most airlines!
Good on you for asking it, though.</font>
Canarsie--
This is by FAR a too-intelligent question to be asking when you are dealing with most airlines!
Good on you for asking it, though.</font>
Coincidentally, at my hotel this morning in Dallas, I read an interesting article in The Dallas Morning News entitled Frequent fliers frequently peeved . It can be found on-line at http://www.dallasnews.com/dmn/news/s...al.558d4.html.
[This message has been edited by Canarsie (edited 12-20-2002).]
Jan 2, 2003, 1:58 pm
#40
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Join Date: May 1998
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1) Rigid price stucturing: Figure out what the gross cost of a seat is on each flight and charge about that amount for a 30-day advance ticket, 20% profit for a 14 day ticket, 50% profit for a walk-up ticket and 100% profit for a first class ticket. No upgrades (as first class seats would actually be affordable).
2) Then force under threat of death that all employees treat every single customer as if he or she were their boss. Empower employees to grant waivers and favors galore.
3) Sit back and watch the money pile up.
2) Then force under threat of death that all employees treat every single customer as if he or she were their boss. Empower employees to grant waivers and favors galore.
3) Sit back and watch the money pile up.
Jan 7, 2003, 4:00 am
#41
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2002
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the entire system needs revamping.
First, if you need to buy a ticket at the airport, you go to a desk that does that and that alone. A bunch of third party ombudsmans are stationed there to handle all issues and they do so RIGHT THEN. They assure you that whatever problem you have is being handled exactly as you wish it to right away. There will always be errors and problems but they should be dealt with starting there.
Second, All luggage and check in should happen at huge, central, third party desk. Everyone working there reports TO which ever airline you are using, but they ALL speak the same speak and help the same way. If you have a complaint or issue, it is logged and everyone there can access its notes (so you dont have to re-explain yourself and re learn things at the next airline.)
Then your luggage gets directed to the arline being flown. This process would be very similar as to how it is right now when you fly back to the states from overseas and have to connect domestically. Various Airline agents should be along the sidelines to greet you and be all smiles and helpful.
Then, when you go to the gate to check in, the desk agents and station managers should do nothing but their job (get you seated on the dang planes!)
There should be an ombudsman at every desk to help with external problems customers have. That way, the station managers CAN focus of their jobs and not be so busy (which leads to screw ups we see all the time across the board.)
Luggage and systems would be streamline and standardized, and airlines could concentrate on two things:
Greeting you, and flying.
That is about all they are willing to do anyway, without fees.
First, if you need to buy a ticket at the airport, you go to a desk that does that and that alone. A bunch of third party ombudsmans are stationed there to handle all issues and they do so RIGHT THEN. They assure you that whatever problem you have is being handled exactly as you wish it to right away. There will always be errors and problems but they should be dealt with starting there.
Second, All luggage and check in should happen at huge, central, third party desk. Everyone working there reports TO which ever airline you are using, but they ALL speak the same speak and help the same way. If you have a complaint or issue, it is logged and everyone there can access its notes (so you dont have to re-explain yourself and re learn things at the next airline.)
Then your luggage gets directed to the arline being flown. This process would be very similar as to how it is right now when you fly back to the states from overseas and have to connect domestically. Various Airline agents should be along the sidelines to greet you and be all smiles and helpful.
Then, when you go to the gate to check in, the desk agents and station managers should do nothing but their job (get you seated on the dang planes!)
There should be an ombudsman at every desk to help with external problems customers have. That way, the station managers CAN focus of their jobs and not be so busy (which leads to screw ups we see all the time across the board.)
Luggage and systems would be streamline and standardized, and airlines could concentrate on two things:
Greeting you, and flying.
That is about all they are willing to do anyway, without fees.
Aug 4, 2004, 2:20 pm
#42
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BOS
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Posts: 1,551
Ah, if I could run my own airline.... So, of course, provided this was financially viable, I would do things differently!
1. No cattle class. Coach needs to be a lot more comfortable and spacious. There's also room to consider some different seating configurations, perhaps with single seats in some sections for those individual flyers. This would also mean that an upgrade, while desirable, isn't going to be as big of a deal, at least on domestic routes. Also, F should be an experience that is worth all the extra $$$$ people spend on it. I would like to see a true private cabin experience where people can have true privacy.
2. On-demand IFE with decent-sized screens. I always feel like I need a magnifying glass to see those damn screens. Forget the big overhead projectors.
3. In-seat, live, internet connectivity -- either wired or wireless. Power ports at every seat, too. Cell phone service is a good idea, too, but frown on people talking at their seat.
4. Since I can get better-tasting food at SubWay for $5 than on a typical airplane, what about a SubWay in the air?
Or some similar approach to meal preparation. Use the interactive IFE system to let people order what they want and when they want it. The whole FA with the cart going down the aisle is a pain in the butt. How about letting people pre-order a meal in advance, from an expanded menu selection, and have that meal on board, just to be heated or something.
5. Simplified fare structure and restrictions. Non-refundable restricted tickets can be changed at any time (before or after travel has started) as long as there are seats available. First change is free, but subsequent changes incur a small administrative fee. Any tickets are fully transferable.
6. All wide-body planes. Single-aisle planes are cramped and take longer to board and deplane.
7. FF program: Free space-available upgrades for all elites. Miles can be redeemed for any airline -- we'll buy you a ticket on another airline when redeeming miles. You can book awards -- all awards, from upgrades to free flights -- on-line, even if you're not the one flying. No more spending time on-hold with CS.
Some more miscellaneous rambling: the people on here are right -- flying ought to be fun! With all the hassles in getting to/from the airport and getting through security, an airline should do everything it possibly can to make things more pleasant for the customer. A separate section for crying babies. Sorry, but screaming babies is one of my pet peeves.
Ok, I'm going to stop now, or this'll never end.
1. No cattle class. Coach needs to be a lot more comfortable and spacious. There's also room to consider some different seating configurations, perhaps with single seats in some sections for those individual flyers. This would also mean that an upgrade, while desirable, isn't going to be as big of a deal, at least on domestic routes. Also, F should be an experience that is worth all the extra $$$$ people spend on it. I would like to see a true private cabin experience where people can have true privacy.
2. On-demand IFE with decent-sized screens. I always feel like I need a magnifying glass to see those damn screens. Forget the big overhead projectors.
3. In-seat, live, internet connectivity -- either wired or wireless. Power ports at every seat, too. Cell phone service is a good idea, too, but frown on people talking at their seat.
4. Since I can get better-tasting food at SubWay for $5 than on a typical airplane, what about a SubWay in the air?
Or some similar approach to meal preparation. Use the interactive IFE system to let people order what they want and when they want it. The whole FA with the cart going down the aisle is a pain in the butt. How about letting people pre-order a meal in advance, from an expanded menu selection, and have that meal on board, just to be heated or something.5. Simplified fare structure and restrictions. Non-refundable restricted tickets can be changed at any time (before or after travel has started) as long as there are seats available. First change is free, but subsequent changes incur a small administrative fee. Any tickets are fully transferable.
6. All wide-body planes. Single-aisle planes are cramped and take longer to board and deplane.
7. FF program: Free space-available upgrades for all elites. Miles can be redeemed for any airline -- we'll buy you a ticket on another airline when redeeming miles. You can book awards -- all awards, from upgrades to free flights -- on-line, even if you're not the one flying. No more spending time on-hold with CS.
Some more miscellaneous rambling: the people on here are right -- flying ought to be fun! With all the hassles in getting to/from the airport and getting through security, an airline should do everything it possibly can to make things more pleasant for the customer. A separate section for crying babies. Sorry, but screaming babies is one of my pet peeves.
Ok, I'm going to stop now, or this'll never end.
Last edited by sxpsxpsxp; Aug 4, 2004 at 2:22 pm Reason: spelling
Aug 7, 2004, 7:37 am
#43
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,686
1) I would ONLY fly where there is enough local demand to fill whatever schedule I have. No point in increasing the costs by propping up non-profitable "feeder" markets.
2) Only fly enough frequencies/seats that I could fill.
3) No perks whatsoever. You buy on my airline because I have given you the best service you can get for your dollar. My service and prices are so good, I don't have to bribe you to fly. Maybe a simple award structure... 1 point per dollar spent, then you can redeem these on a mile per point basis based on origin and destination (remember direct flying only) spend 3 grand on me, fly from NYC to LAX for free.
4) Coach only, but a high quality...after all...I don't have "upgrades" in my frequent flier program.
5) A web site that works.
6) A big salary for myself.
Wow...I just described the way alot of LCC's start their business, before they expand and see that A) feeder marets work. B) Customers want freebees (that aren't free to my company) C) Some people will pay more for their seats than others, so I can make more money by complicating my price structure. D) To expand my routes, I need more frequencies with better connecting times.
Eventually, I like most of by bretheren, fold up shop because there are too many seats out there, and the industry is cut-throat, with profit margins during the economic booms of under 5% and years of heavy losses to offset these.
2) Only fly enough frequencies/seats that I could fill.
3) No perks whatsoever. You buy on my airline because I have given you the best service you can get for your dollar. My service and prices are so good, I don't have to bribe you to fly. Maybe a simple award structure... 1 point per dollar spent, then you can redeem these on a mile per point basis based on origin and destination (remember direct flying only) spend 3 grand on me, fly from NYC to LAX for free.
4) Coach only, but a high quality...after all...I don't have "upgrades" in my frequent flier program.
5) A web site that works.
6) A big salary for myself.
Wow...I just described the way alot of LCC's start their business, before they expand and see that A) feeder marets work. B) Customers want freebees (that aren't free to my company) C) Some people will pay more for their seats than others, so I can make more money by complicating my price structure. D) To expand my routes, I need more frequencies with better connecting times.
Eventually, I like most of by bretheren, fold up shop because there are too many seats out there, and the industry is cut-throat, with profit margins during the economic booms of under 5% and years of heavy losses to offset these.
Jun 27, 2008, 9:42 am
#44
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Marietta, Georgia, United States
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Well, it has been greater than five years since I first posted this thread, which incidentally was the very first time I have ever posted to FlyerTalk.
A lot has changed to frequent flier programs since then.
For example, according to the Delta Continues to Adjust to Unprecedented Fuel Costs with Addition of Fuel Surcharge thread, Delta Air Lines announced that effective August 15, 2008, the SkyMiles® program will add a $25 surcharge for Award Travel between the 50 states and Canada, and a $50 surcharge for Award Travel between the 50 states/Canada and all international destinations.
US Airways has already announced drastic changes to the Dividend Miles program, including eliminating the earning of bonus miles for elite Preferred Dividend Miles members.
There are myriad other examples from other airlines regarding the slow decimation of frequent flier programs.
It is now June 2008. Fuel costs are rising to unprecedented levels. Frequent flier awards are slowly becoming nothing more than discounted travel. Services and benefits have been cut back or eliminated.
You are the CEO of _____ Airlines, and you must strike a balance between the advent of increasing costs and still trying to differentiate your product from other airlines. What would you do?
A lot has changed to frequent flier programs since then.
For example, according to the Delta Continues to Adjust to Unprecedented Fuel Costs with Addition of Fuel Surcharge thread, Delta Air Lines announced that effective August 15, 2008, the SkyMiles® program will add a $25 surcharge for Award Travel between the 50 states and Canada, and a $50 surcharge for Award Travel between the 50 states/Canada and all international destinations.
US Airways has already announced drastic changes to the Dividend Miles program, including eliminating the earning of bonus miles for elite Preferred Dividend Miles members.
There are myriad other examples from other airlines regarding the slow decimation of frequent flier programs.
It is now June 2008. Fuel costs are rising to unprecedented levels. Frequent flier awards are slowly becoming nothing more than discounted travel. Services and benefits have been cut back or eliminated.
You are the CEO of _____ Airlines, and you must strike a balance between the advent of increasing costs and still trying to differentiate your product from other airlines. What would you do?