I had a similar experience with my UA Visa but C2IT contacted me via email last week and stated they had made a mistake and credited my account the "cash advance" charges. Nice...

I was reading the C2IT Terms and Conditions

https://www.c2it.com/C2IT/aoltc_off.jsp

D. Instructions for Transferring Cash

1. Transferring Cash from any of your Linked Bank Accounts to any of
your Linked Accounts:

c2it service enables you to Transfer Cash ("Transfer Cash") from any of
your Linked Bank Accounts (checking, savings or money market
accounts) to any other Linked Accounts (these include credit card and
bank accounts). To Transfer Cash, you will need to provide the amount
to transfer, the Linked Bank Account from which you would like funds
transferred and the destination account.

2. Transferring Cash From Your c2it Account to Any of Your Linked
Accounts:

You can Transfer Cash from your c2it Account to any of your Linked
Accounts (these include credit card and bank accounts) in any amount
up to the cash available in your c2it Account, subject to the
transaction limits in Section XIII.

3. At this time, you cannot directly Transfer Cash from a Linked Card
Account.

4. Transfer Cash requests cannot be cancelled.

5. Transfer Cash requests are subject to the transaction limits and
fees in Section XIII.

Line 3 States that I can not transfer cash FROM a linked card account. Am I reading something wrong here?

Jay

I would use my FF Visa cards to get some quick cash (and miles) for my business. I did it quite a few times over the last 5 years. I would hit for around $5,000. I got caught on it from Visa, so I switched to Diners card (double BA miles). When Diners nailed me....the money never hit my business account, but the card charge held! It took about 3 weeks to clear that up. I think the SS number is what got me caught. I may run my wife's BA card (w/ her SS #) next time (in 2002)???

I'm posting this here instead of the DC forum since this is where the thread is...

I'm a big Diner's Club user, so I have accounts with Webcertificate and C2it.

Webcertificate takes DC and charges me $1 per $50, which is half what it would be using my ClubCash account. I can yank $4,000 from my DC account for $80. Not bad when you need the cash for non-DC spending. C2it doesn't charge anything to transfer money from a linked credit card to a linked bank account. Only thing about this system for "laundering money" is that webcertificate won't do more than $50 per transaction and only $150 in a short period (like 10 minutes). I think the $150 is DC's security checks kicking in because I can go back an hour later and do another $150.
Once I've built up a chunk, I transfer it to C2it and then out to my bank.
It's tedious but I don't think I'll (hopefully) have to move any big bucks again (this was post-9/11/01 cash flow problem).

I think the Webcertificate is a great way to get money from DC for transactions that don't take DC. C2it is a great way to move money to my bank account.

Things I've learned. Keep your transaction below $500. Something at that level seems to trip security alarms at both WebCert and C2it. When I first got the accounts set up, I had to talk twice to Webcert and once to C2it to confirm my activity. They weren't nasty about it, just wanted to make sure that I was the one doing it, etc. Standard credit card security procedures. It's pretty obvious that both systems are set up to limit their exposure to fraud.

I reckon you would start triggering sort of Federal bank reporting regulation type stuff when you get to the $20K level.

I'm wondering how long they are going to allow me to effectively use their service for free. Since I don't use any of their fee-based services, they'll probably get mad at me eventually and pull the plug. That's why I jokingly referred to this system as "money laundering" in my previous post.

[This message has been edited by GeorgeBurdell (edited 12-02-2001).]

Sorry to be off-topic,
George, have you been able to use your Diners at webcertificate lately? It hasn't worked on the web site for about 1 1/2 months, and they no longer feel like processing it manually. I'm wondering if it's just me.

My DC works fine for me at Webcertificate.

GeorgeBurdell. Thanks for the tip on DC on webcertificate, which I've never heard of before. I would assume that you would receive Club Reward points for your DC transactions, but wanted to check to see what your experience was first. Also, if you do receive the points, do you receive the double CR points when transferring the amounts you mention.

Thanks.

The webcert transaction comes across as some (I don't remember details) merchant thing. I just have a crapload of $50 transactions on my bill. I didn't notice any missing ClubRewards points. Just shows you that a large part of their account review system is automated and people only get involved when you trip one of their triggers. Personally, if I looked at those transactions on someone else's account, I'd wonder why they bought 80 $50 items from this merchant <chuckle>.

Back when c2it had a 90 day intro period, I managed to rack up 110,000 CO miles on Chase Visa between my wife and I before I was flagged and my account closed. Each of us had three accounts, and we rotated the amount and the accounts so we weren't paying from the same two accounts twice. It seems that better controls are in place today.

------------------
On the road,
In the air,
I enjoy travel
From here to there.

[This message has been edited by ontheroad (edited 12-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by ontheroad (edited 12-04-2001).]

<quote>Back when c2it had a 90 day intro period, I managed to rack up 110,000 CO miles on Chase Visa between my wife and I before I was flagged and my account closed. Each of us had three accounts, and we rotated the amount and the accounts so we weren't paying from the same two accounts twice. It seems that better controls are in place today.</quote>

This seems to confirm the $20K per account cumulative limit triggering a manual review
(6 accounts X $20K = $120K if you time it just right for a couple). One rep let slip that they had closed about 300 accounts for excessive usage of frequent flier credit cards, out of over 8 million total acounts!

GeorgeBurdell, thanks for your reply. I was wondering though, if the per transaction limit is $200, why do you only transfer $50 at one time? The fee for $200 is $4.95 and the fee for $50 is $1.00, which is a savings of .95 cents for 4 $50 transactions. Is it simply a savings issue?

Thanks GeorgeBurdell, I was offered a retention bonus with Diners if I spent $150 a month. I was still wondering how I would spend that much. My car doesn't use that much gas in a month. The webcertificate idea is just great!! I am also signed up with c2it, but haven't used it yet.

I have been watching this thread (and similar ones) with some interest.

I've seen the question posed several times about why it is that accounts are getting flagged and reviewed manually.

As a former fraud investigator for a credit card company, I thought I might jump in with a quick comment or two.

The reason your accounts are being flagged likely has little or nothing to do with earning mileage. That's right, probably NOTHING to do with mileage.

See, the cash/balance transfer game is a common element in credit card fraud rings.

How does it work?

Well, it all starts with one (or several depending on the size of the scam) legitimate credit card. I say "legitimate" card loosely. Often it is opened by taking a presolicited offer that someone unwisely dumped in the trash without shredding.

Then, the individual(s) opens one (or usually many, sometimes into the hundreds) of credit cards with various banks/cc companies/stores/etc. and uses them to make small purchases.

The legitimate card is used to make payments on the new fraud cards in order to establish some type of history on the cards for credibility. Usually the payment on the legit cards is covered by return behavior on the fraud cards. Cash transferring is common between cards which often have names of a "spouse". Often on store cards, gift certificates will be bought with one card and then used to make a payment on another.

Then, when a payment history pattern is established, BAM, the scam kicks in... the individual goes for credit line increases on all the cards and goes on a spree... usually for cash advances and (in the case of high end stores) pawnable merchandise. By the time the fraud is detected and the accounts closed, the ring has made out well.

Anyway... just about any company with a good fraud investigation department is going to flag accounts that have this shifting behavior going on. It likely has little to do with mileage earning and everything to do with suspected fraud. The fact that it is going on between accounts between two cards with the same name or same surname or same mailing address (or even city)? Suspect. The fact that it occurs on a regular (and sometimes even predictable basis)? Suspect.

If that doesn't discourage you, I would also caution this. If you are having accounts closed and then go to apply for a card somewhere else, and your credi bureau shows high balance or high activity closed accounts (or possibly has even been flagged by the issuing company as a potential fraud), it is not uncommon for this to lower your credit score enough to flag a manual review.

It is not uncommon on a manual review for an investigator from one card company to call an investigator the company where the card was closed to find out why. Companies are very prone to cooperating when it comes to preventing fraud losses. We were always very discreet about this, but a simple "we wouldn't issue to them again" goes a long way towards damaging your credit".

In our computers, these individuals were noted with an X and anytime their social security number or physicial address (or in some cases surname) came up on an application, it was automatically queued to the fraud desk to approve or decline.

I just thought this might be of interest to my FT friends who I care about... ultimately, the $$ you make on free tickets may pale in comparison to the $$ you pay due to marginally higher interest rates due to damaged credit, especially when it isn't something YOU can see on your credit bureau.

That's good information TechGirl.
The reason I do the $50 transactions is because getting the $200 one involves sending a "gift" and then I have to redeem it, etc. Doing the $50 one involves adding funds to my existing Webcert account, which doesn't look so suspicious. When I do that I'm basically refueling the card.
Generally, I'm not trying to accumulate points, I get enough just using my DC for shopping/dining/travel. Webcert and C2it offer a handy way to move cash where I need it. I've even used it to pay a bill where I was almost late paying it and needed to avoid late charges, etc. Better to pay a few bucks service charge than to be late with a bill and its associated late fees.

[This message has been edited by GeorgeBurdell (edited 12-05-2001).]