Interesting case Thumper. I hope you tell us the outcome. I would guess that the driver running the stop sign is 100% at fault, regardless of the other drivers lights being off knowingly or not. I don't know what state this happened in, but I believe in my state (Delaware) there is a law that states you must have your headlights on 30 minutes before dusk to 30 minutes after dawn, so the other driver should get a ticket also.

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AA, Onepass, Skymiles, Hhonors, Starwood

The gentleman who drove without his headlights was ticketed for doing so.

However: The court ruled that while the car with no lights was a contributing factor in the accident, the stop sign runner was 100% at fault here in Connecticut. Another person breaking the law is not a compelling reason for you to do the same.

editorial:
Many people choose to obey laws (and rules)when they want to. When we break laws and rules and there is no apparent victim, there seems to be no wrongness.

Ultimately we get caught. Since we have become blind to the wrongness, we look for another reason why repeated behavior without punishment is suddenly punished. As we cannot point to ourselves as being at fault, we look for mitigating circumstances. It was the other guys fault, etc.

I could use numerous examples, some that were cited in this thread. What if there really is global warming? What if fossil fuels really are finite? What if mass cheating on FF miles really does reduce the number of seats available for others? And so on... One poster has suggested that since we cannot definitively point to a loss of FF benefits (there is no clear victim) then it is, in fact OK to cheat.

I disagree. You never know when a car will come along with no headlights.....

thanks for listening!

Thumper

Thumper, that is one of the most eloquent arguments I have read in a long time.

However, it fails to address the root cause. In my opinino, the root cause is that the airline "cheated" first by touting award travel that often is not available. They "offer" upgrades for 10K miles, but if you are not elite or didn't pay for an exorbitant fare, what chance do you have? They initially were honest enough to publish blackout dates, but this misleadingly implied that awards were available at other times (sometime available, sometimes not).

I am not saying that two wrongs make a right, but the passenger who is trying to "cheat" the airline is no more wrong than the airlines that have cheated passengers.

Your story and the judge's Solomonic ability to determine who was more wrong misses the point for that reason.

But what about those of us who aren't cheating anyone? I'm not cheating the airline, I don't think the airline is cheating me.

But I am getting cheated by the original poster's father, because he's breaking the rules and sitting in the first class seat I would have gotten if he didn't cheat. Is it OK for him to cheat me?

d

What a bleak and boring world we would have if everybody played by the stated rules.

I say go ahead and let your father use the account. Screw the moral and ethical crap. Live it up, we all need a vice or some sort or we are doomed to banality. Just be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.

LemonThrower,
Thank you for the kind words! We seem to be going through a rash of intelligent debates here at FT with no flamethrowers. I love it!

Next ethical dilema. I love my job, though it has had it's ups and downs. When hired I was told my earning potential was "open ended". (I head a 3 company division). I make a decent living, but unfortunately it's not all I want it to be, although they assured me it would be.

Recently we had some layoffs. There is a great laptop laying around that no one knows exists, and probably won't know that it ever existed. My son could really use it at school, and besides, at least one school of thought says that if I don't take it, someone else will.

So - do I take it? Chances are very good I'll never get caught, it's for a good cause, and the company never really paid me like they suggested they might.

Or do you think somewhere theres a car without headlights with my name on it?

Your example although ethical in nature, is based more on a risk reward scenario. I mean the risk is far greater than the reward in a situation of employee pilfering than a case of someone illicitly using frequent flyer miles. The original poster wasn't asking about ethics, he was asking about the risk of getting caught.

The upside of no headlights is that they never see you coming or going. Therefore it harder for the victim to make a positive ID.

So if you get stuck in coach on some longhauls or can't fly standby on a few flights because of people doing this, you wouldn't be upset that you were cheated by someone who didn't play by the rules?

Or if your car gets smashed by someone who doesn't want to make a complete stop at a stop sign, it's OK, because getting your new car totaled makes life interesting?

Or if your child gets killed by a drunk driver, it's OK, because tragic deaths really make us appreciate the time we have, right?

d

I would normally be ignorant as to who was upgraded and why so at that point and time in the greater scheme of things it wouldn't really matter.

Yeah, it actually would. Gotta take the good with the bad.


Very true. Close tragic deaths do make us appreciate life more.

jwalkabout-

Well, that's great for you, but who gave you the power to decide my fate for me?

The biggest problem in a free society is that there are always people who will break the rules. It benefits them but harms others.

I believe in us having as much freedom as possible, but it only works if we act responsbily. Responsible behavior in a free society means that one person shouldn't usurp the freedom of another.

You may not mind it when other people take your freedom away, but I do; and you have no right to do so.

Each time someone breaks the rules the innocent are the ones who get screwed. The terrorists on 9/11 broke the rules, and the fallout from that is obvious.

The guy running the stop sign broke the rules and caused damage to someone else's car.

Drunk drivers cause $110 million dollars in property damage EACH DAY, not to mention the number of people they kill or seriously injure.

In each of those cases above, someone is breaking the rules and taking away someone else's freedom. It's not fair to the innocent people. If you feel the need to impose yourself on others, move to a desert island and start your own country. If you want to live in a free society, try to act responsibly and not intentionally cause harm to others.

d

"Caught" already suggests there's something wrong with it. The fact that you are unhappy with the way your job has turned out, and the possible misrepresentation by your employers of your career opportunities (or your own misjudgement of your potential with this company) do not justify your stealing from your employers ("caught" --> wrong --> stealing). You should have discussed this with them long before you got to the point where you felt that stealing might somehow be justified.

I am assuming this is a hypothetical ethical situation for you, Thumper - from your posts that I have read, you somehow don't seem like the type that would actually do this.

I'd put my old man up in first class and feel pretty darned good about knowing I made his day.

OFF TOPIC>>>One time from Vegas to Denver I was travelling w/ my dad. I had a first class seat. I put him up front instead of me and he absolutely loved it...now that made a son feel good.

Wow. I just finished reading the other three pages of posts here...quite the controversy.

I predict we will see a spike in the number of frequent flyers naming their children after themselves!

I feel the "chump" for not naming my sons after me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
But perhaps I can convince the children to name the grandsons after me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif