None of those examples are fraud, unlike the hypothetical scenario originally offered in this thread.

The airlines can PUBLISH all they want and SAY all they want, but what constitutes what they allow is their actions, its called, all together now, setting a precedent.

How does one get to elite if reading the published rules? Answer: by flying a certain number of miles.

What is the precedent? Allowing unpublished challenges, comps, etc.

ONE MORE TIME, show me precedents, facts, actions.

Like if you were going to Court. In fact, I could just see a judge who, instead of given facts and set precedents, has someone before him that is totally, selfishly, unconcerned with wasting his and the Court's time, someone who wants desperately to be right, but given his arsenal, can only offer clouding debates and off-topic righteousness ... not a pretty picture.

My personal EXPERIENCE, the airline's PRECEDENT, dictates that the airline allow those with the same name to just pick a number - they could care less.

AGAIN, anyone with any other EXPERIENCE, feel free to pipe up and you'll deserve some attention, otherwise, unless you're paying the reader by the hour, its just a waste of time to read about how ethic you are (I think thou dost protest too much) or how desperately you feel the need to be right (I think its called using the reader instead of paying a psychiatrist).

[This message has been edited by lisamcgu (edited 02-14-2002).]

People who achieved their status through comps, challenges, AmEx promos, etc., are real elites. They played by the rules. (The only exception here is the people who achieve status once then use it to switch from airline to airline each year, getting a new comp at each airline. This is being fraudulent.)

I can't complain when people play by the rules, but I can complain when people's fraudulent activity causes harm to me. If it's OK for this guy's father to use his status, then it's OK for me to jump from airline to airline getting comped for free at each one, right?

I have AA Plat status. If I don't requalify, I'll just get UA to comp me to their same level in 2003. Then I won't qualify for anyhthing with UA, I'll just get CO to comp me for 2004 based on my UA status. Then I'll get DL to comp me in 2005, US in 2006, then back to AA in 2007. It's fair for me to take your FC upgrades and make you wait behind me in line, right?

Anyone remember arya alliance supposedly doing this and people being upset?


The other point I'd like to address is this "airlines screw over pax as much as possible." While this may be your experience, it certainly hasn't been mine. The AAdvantage elite program has been really good to me.

And finally, lisamcgu the precedent that you make reference to is one agent. He or she not following the rules isn't exactly a precedent. Just because I run a red light it doesn't mean that everyone behind me should do the same.

d

Just for kicks, I called Delta. Guess what? In fact, it is against the rules.

Now there is a novel personal attack!

This example goes along with my personal factual EXPERIENCE that they just don't care and even offer to let you pick which ff acct no. you want to use.

So far, it’s 2 to 0.

AGAIN, does anyone out there have any contradictory EXPERIENCE that would belie this PRECEDENT, something that the airline knowingly set when they let their actions, and that of their agents, take precedence over what was presented as thought?

lisamcgu, I completely agree with you.

For the moralists on this board, how many of you pay taxes on your award tickets? Lets say you get a free trip in FC--that's a pretty pricy ticket. Also, if you received the award as a result of your business travel, isn't it really the property of your employer? Shouldn't you use the award ticket to offset your employer's transportation costs. If you work for say Coca Cola, aren't you just making the cost of a Coke go up for the rest of us, or depriving the stockholders of their property?

ha, ha ...

cactuspete, I have to laugh at how quickly you jumped into assuming it was you who so fit the mold.

Please don't take it so personally. Actually, I geared my comments toward all who seem to have a pop up soapbox but little else to back up their debate.

Every now and then I have had a poster who reasonably and correctly countered my post, and I LOVE IT!

I must have respect (and rejoice) as it is so rare to find someone who correctly counters by actually staying on topic, and with facts and a reasonable debate. In a debate, to go off topic in a feeble attempt to be right is not only obvious, its too easy. I find such posters, actually, quite common and boring.

Of course, that's just MHO.

If the law requires tax to be paid on award tickets, the airlines charge it. Are you suggesting that pax and the airlines are intentionally evading taxes? I somehow doubt the airlines would risk being brought up on charges of tax evasion, but if you have some evidence that they're doing it, I'm sure the government would be pretty interested in getting their hands on it.

For corporate travel, the company's travel policy usually dictates who keeps the miles. Most companies allow their employees to keep the miles earned on business trips as compensation for having to travel, and thus losing out on personal time. If it's in the company's travel policy and you follow the rules, there's no problem. If you're breaking the company's rules, you risk being fired or sued.


I'm not even so concerned with the morals or ethics, I'm more concerned with myself. I work to attain frequent flyer elite status because it affords me certain privileges. I don't want to see them taken away by people who break the rules.

Here's another example - air rage is on the rise. A lot of people become air ragers after drinking, so lawmakers in the US and UK are looking at banning alcohol on flights. Is that fair to the majority of travelers who drink on flights but don't cause trouble? How about DWIs? Because some people break the rules and drive drunk, should we ban alcohol entirely?

My point is that people breaking the rules causes harm to others who act within them.

d

And whatever makes you think that I was referring to myself??? I never indicated that I was defending myself, only pointing out your inappropriate post. Apparently, however, I was the intended target.

You have clearly violated several of the Terms and Conditions of FlyerTalk: no personal attacks and no condoning of illegal activities. But I suppose that you will somehow try to justify those indiscretions, as well.


(edited for UBB code)


[This message has been edited by cactuspete (edited 02-14-2002).]

I was referring to income tax, not sales tax. You generally must self-report income tax. Sec. 61 of the U.S. internal revenue code requires you to include the value of FF benefits in your taxable income. The IRS generally ignores this because the value is small, but you are required to include the value in your taxes. A pair of FC tix overseas has such a high retail value that the taxes would be at least several hundred dollars.

Beckles, your distinction is not a good one. Its not fruad if you don't make a statement. You could arrange your affairs to take advantage of an airline mistake of assuming you had status because you had the same name without making any affirmative statement. This is to me the same as taking advantage of a pricing error.

Its surprising to find so many moralists on the sight that touted the scam of how to fly the Concorde by buying magazines.

At one point or another you would be asked to provide your frequent flyer number. There's no way to get FF benefits without it. By providing someone else's FF number, you're defrauding the airline into thinking you're someone you aren't. They ask for your FF number, you provide a false one - that's the statement, that's the fraudulent misrepresentation.

(edited to add) Furthermore, some of the data used for the CAPPS system comes from your frequent flyer profile. By traveling on someone else's FF number, you're in effect traveling under a false name, and hence violating national security.

d

[This message has been edited by Doppy (edited 02-14-2002).]

I have never heard anyone say this, and I'd be interested to know if anyone can confirm this. I pay for my FF miles in the value of the tickets I buy, and I buy those tickets with dollars that have been taxed, so I don't see how they could be taxable. This may be a valid argument for miles earned on business travel I suppose since you didn't pay for them with taxed dollars.

As pointed out, providing an FF number is a statement that you are that person. How could it not be considered such a statement?

Huh? That was a promotion offered by two different companies, I don't understand what your point is here, what's wrong with using a promotion that was offered? (I only bought $70 in magazines myself and I fail to see anything wrong with it).

Here's what can happen when someone breaks the rule.

http://www2.bostonherald.com/news/lo...ll02142002.htm

Re whether or not ff awards are taxable (ie, must one declare them as income on a personal income statement), i have a friend who's a tax attorney, who says that altho the IRS has not enforced this because of the administrative hassles, the answer is yes if your award comes from miles accrued by tickets purchased by somebody else (ie, your employer), but not if the award comes from tickets purchased by you; the distinction is that when you bought the tickets which led to the award, the ff miles were part of the bargained for exchange between you and the airline (you're simply getting a benefit you paid for); however, when your employer pays for the ticket and you get the miles, you're getting a benefit with financial value for which you haven't paid for; therefore, it's essentially part of your income; i'm not sure what happens for awards obtained w/ a mix of employer and self paid tickets, but perhaps the award would partially taxed??? in any event, as noted above, so far the IRS has figured that there's no good way to enforce this, so they haven't; but that's not to say they won't in the future .... thx to everyone for your posts; i've enjoyed reading them, altho at the moment i've decided nothing (and, so far, i've never tried it); guess the real moment of truth will come the next time Dad flies (which is at least 8 months away); actually i think the worst thing about trying this for me would be embarassing my Dad if an agent figured it out; i'd hate that worse than losing status/having my account closed ... tls

It doesn't make any sense to tax the retail value of a FF award ticket. Many award tickets are issued to people who wouldn't have otherwise taken the trip (e.g., First Class to Europe for which you would never pay the fare).

You could say the value (to you) of the award ticket is the revenue the airline loses by not selling the seat you sit in. But airlines charge higher fares for the remaining seats, so it's a wash. An income tax on award ticket values is not only an administrative hassle, it's a tax on practically zero.


My opinion of using someone else's FF account (on purpose, not accidentally as Tango noted) -- it is unethical. It is against the airline's rules (except family members in BA), and you are taking an upgrade from another elite passenger when First checks in full. It's a selfish thing to do.

If you want more miles, instead of stealing them, visit the Mileage Run forum.