post or not, share or not: (secret?) tips
 

From time to time, there are 'heated' discussions on this board, when tips are shared/promoted how to maximise (our custerm's) our frequent flier profits.

Often these discussions are held in specific threads promoting such a maximised 'profit-taking'.

I myself am in favor of sharing on this board. Mainly for the following reasons:

* Fairness to Randy and his/our board here is, in my opinion, to publish/post openly here.
* Fairness to our fellow FlyerTalkers here on this/our board is, in my opinion, to share as much informations here on this board as possible (and as legally ok).
* Fairness to the airlines: if loopholes really harm them, then I don't mind if they get to know. They will anyway know if many consumers take chances.
* Fairness on this board: don't attack (the) poster(s) - discuss/argue the arguments pro and contra.

Rudi

I favour the idea of publishing any idea on flyertalk.com. The more people read and contribute, the better the outcome. I don't mind if airlines/hotels/cars/... will close some loopholes afterwards (and it is still the question if it is cheaper for them to have a loophole that is used by a minority or spend a lot of money to fix the systems (and produce another error). It all depends from the current situation of how much money they loose). IMO, most airlines/hotels/cars/... know many their own loopholes (and surely much more about which we have no clue).

I profited so much from this board. I will contribute in future, too, and hope to give "something back" from that others will be able to profit. (And I think that the openess on the board also lead to wonderful meetings where people can exchange loopholes, too).

There will always be two camps.

1. Those who are happy to share - quickly, any new promos or error fares, or promo points etc. (And inevitably get flamed by some users for doing so.)

2. Those who either lurk or post other than to those threads but share in the discovery nonetheless, but if asked maintain the tip should *never* have been posted anyway. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I am all for LEGAL loopholes/offers/promos/glitches being posted here on FT. I have a feeling that was one of the reasons our host created it and maintains it.

Every airline/hotel program has a bunch a "grey" or less than grey areas that regulars of those Fora discuss at FT meets, and via private email etc. Each one of us can choose to act or not act on those based on our own conscience.

Often is is not even a loophole but just creative application of the rules WHEN someone notices it. How many here have already or will soon fly Concorde roundtrip after spending $1,250 for Inside Flyer magazines? Had that thread not been posted would most of those have bothered buying them? Of course not. The airline trip of my lifetime. Some folks squawked that posting this info would see Qantas block the deal. It would not have surprised me to see it, but so far - the deal has worked for anyone who tried it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

UNITED969 could have kept quiet last month about the $59 + tax Orbitz *Error fares* from all MX gateways for Business Class fares to PVR. And booked for him and his friends instead. Instead 100s of us are now going to PVR for peanuts in style thanks to his generosity of sharing. The posting of the first "find" - fares from ORD in October quickly became clear it was from all gateways, and for all dates more or less. THAT is the strength of FT. A kernal of info gets expanded and tested in all directions.

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~ Glen ~

I appreciate the revelation of various "unpublished benefits." Knowledge is power. Why should the airlines have a monopoly on information, even if they create it? After all, we are bound by their rules, if we choose to play.

I feel that it's ok to post anything you find, but then it should also be ok to accept any outcome, the PVR flights must have cost either orbitz or the airline around $100000 in lost revenue, yes it's their own fault but we have to understand that in the current (difficult) financial situation for them they are always going to divert these losses directly back at their customers through higher fares or less promotion fares.

They screwed up, they will pay dearly for it but next time you don't get your pre-boarding hot nuts think for a second why they are having to cut costs?

If someone finds a loophole offering super elite 1K status for $1000 (an excellent find) and 100 people make use of it, the cost to the airline could possibly be almost 2 million dollars! (6 SWU's have the potential of costing them $18000 in revenue), so when next year certain perks are removed or restrictions are created once more, think for a second if the loophole in any way contributed to that.

FT is just a very small proportion of the customer base but has the ability to cause massive damages to airlines and hotels.

Just IMHO of course...

in my opinion it is true that sometimes airlines will loose (and the costumers, for a limited time at least) winn, if many (too many?) costumers profit from 'extreme' offers/loopholes/whatever.

Sharing/posting openly this posibilities might just help the airline to get to know early/earlier (and I agree, may be in the long run limit and/or define new rules for frequent traveller 'perks') - which, if the philosophy is not to 'hurt/hit' airlines (and their frequent flier programs) 'under the belt', would/should be even more ok/accepted then.

I agree with you Rudi, but to be honest saying that making a profit off a loophole or mistake will help the airline learn about their mistake is of course a bit of a hypocritical theory (sorry for a lack of better words), if one really wanted to help their airline then they would call them and get directly in touch with the IT department, not use the loophole as much as possible in the hope someone will notice.

The past job losses have also hit airline IT support departments and there is certainly a chance that due to a lack of staff they won't notice the mistake till an honest person calls them.

In the case of the PVR flights I understood someone DID call orbitz or MX and that person was subsequently called all kinds of names (also in chat) for doing so as he "spoilt" the deal for others. In this case it wasn't a "deal", it was a mistake, I am glad many people on FT managed to make use of it and am sure they will have a great time but it wouldn't surprise me if the IT person responsable for misloading the fare is now sitting home unemployed...

Just imagine for one second what YOU would do if it was you in this situation, if someone ordered something off you at a wrong price and you are going to make a substantial loss, say $10000... would you still deliver? even if the person never bought from you before and probably never will?

ScottC I agree.

I am personally against exploiting mistakes (like apparently wrong priced offers, typing errors, etc. etc.).

I am all for getting the best official price, the best ratio of personal costs/rewards/services for me (and as many FT colleagues as possible).

But if 'in doubt' I am (and play) the consumer ('s advocat) and not the airline's controller.

I still believe that the (airline) consumer is in average knowledge far behind what airlines know about pricing, etc.

I think most of us would use such an error or glitch in his favor. But I think that's not Rudi's point.

The question is: would you publicly post your finding here? Yes, you will make some fellow FT'ers happy. But depending on the quality of that error the airline will most probably fix it shortly.

I, too am very glad to have this community here. And there is a good number of FT members not only taking but also giving. I also understand that I have an obilgation to Randy for providing this platform. He has the possibility to make business out of great tips and findings here on ft.com. This is O.K. for me.

But sometimes (and this feeling has developed the last weeks) I am a little bit sick that apparently 'lurker-only' members of the board only pick information to profit but do not share anything with the board. And I really get angry on those people selling information they gathered here on ebay.

And this leads into my decission to not post each and every finding here in the future anymore. If I find a real loophole that I want to be kept as long as possible I would use other means to exchange information with those ft'ers I've got to know personally and where I know they will share their private findings openly with me, too.

Don't misunderstand me. I will still participate actively here and share much information that I think is interesting. But there may be some special things I would not post here any longer. I don't want to assist those 'lurker-only' types of fellows which only want to gain maximum profit out of ft.com without contributing anything.

ScottC, I agree with you on the loss situation. A big airline may have a loss because of an error (e.g. wrong input) made by a person (just think of the bad feelings of the person about his/her mistake. We always refer to "LH", "BA", etc. - but there are PEOPLE behind doing their job). The airline looses money and should normally not get into finacial trouble becuase of the small error. In the past we had posts about automallone (points transfer to Hilton): in such small (?) companies such an error may lead to enormous financial difficulties.

I think it's understandable if a traveller wants to take as much advantage as possible regarding fares, miles, you name it.
It's understandable as well if the airlines want to get as much revenue as possible. They are actually setting up an extremely intransparent system of fares and rules to do so.

Anyway, everything is in a move. A few guys at the airlines take a decision and sometimes they make a mistake. If they do a mistake, I'm usually sorry for the guy. But quite often "loopholes" are based on clear decisions. However, sometimes they work out differently as originally intended for the airline.

It's basically the power of FT that a lot of those tips and tricks show up before the opportunity is gone. But in some cases airlines started to monitor FT. Sure enough the one airline I'm thinking of wouldn't do that to improve their service, but to see how FTs (edit: frequent travellers are meant) make use of their own rules.

In these cases it's really a good question what we should do. Are we still discussing how to use the system in a smart way in this case? Or are we already causing one or the other airline to rethink their own decisions and systems? I wouldn't like that very much.

Personally I often feel like a victim of robbery when the airlines take advantage of my travel needs and make me pay huge amounts of money. I'm therefore glad to take advantage myself once in a while.

[This message has been edited by newbe (edited 08-05-2002).]

Yes ralfkrippner, there is certainly a "taker/user" element here on FT. Sad, but true. Happens in all levels of society.

I personally am saddened to read your note. A tip you unearthed late 2001 has gained many FT'ers TENS if not HUNDREDS of millions of free flyer miles. Rudi and ScottC know what I are speaking of. A large number of us owe you a great debt of gratitude as we acted while the offer was still valid. And without Flyertalk none of us would have known. Rudi saw your FT post, and I saw Rudi's later post.



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~ Glen ~

As I noted in the attendant thread, I very much appreciate threads that share such highly prized info personally, and generally love to learn about the offers, whether I decide/wish to take advantage of them or not!

The free flowing info is best, IMHO, and I prefer posting it and reading the posts of others.

Yet I do concede that FT has, ironically perhaps, helped to "dry up" deals as the audience here has become more massive! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Yet what can we do, other than to be "fair" to all?

"THE LIST" was not a failure, IMHO, by any means, and I surely respect that some folks will not post the "deals" they unearth. The willingness such individuals to express their finds via an email correspondence, or whatever is also very much appreciated - naturally! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Many folks will recall that this matter of posting deals, or not, was previously discussed at some length, in the past.

-Mark

Absolutely agree, Ralf's contribution to the community helped a lot of people earn a lot of miles, but it was a genuine promo, not a mistake and not a loophole, it was a promo that created quite a bit of revenue for KLM and hopefully a lot of new customers for the future. I can't ever imagine anyone at KLM HQ being angry that it got posted, probably quite the opposite.

yes, Ralf's post, but even more his explanations of the basic KLM Flying Dutchman rules, helped me a lot to take part and 'win'.

Some days after I read about the promotion on FlyerTalk, I and Gisela got individual letters from KLM (partially targeted at former potential Swissair / Qualiflyer members) to participate and profit.

IMHO, the costs to the airline are not as high as the "retail" price which I believe your are quoting.

Also in past years it has not happened very often, but on my international tickets mistakes have been made by the airline. No the airline never called me and pointed out the error, they were perfectly willing to take the extra money from me and I dare say without any remorse. If it wasn't from the knowledge that I have gained from this board and other sources, I would have never have known.

So a thanks to all contributors and a vote for the sharing of all information. We as individuals can then decide how to act as dictated by our conscience.

I agree 100% with Rudi's positions. All info. should be shared.

I personally would not take advantage of pricing errors (e.g., $24.98 DEN-FRA return)as I feel that this stealing. This is only my personal opinion and others are free to do as they wish, including posting information regarding these errors..

Acheiving status according to the published rules is perfectly acceptable. If one can qualify for LH Senator by taking FRA-ZWS twenty times for 2,700 USD so be it. If one can qualify as a 1K by flying 100 segments for 1,500 USD so be it. Both LH and UA will presumably have new loyal customers who will have to spend money to use their miles (yo upgrade, anyway) and SWU's. LH and UA do not lose money when I use a upgrade cert or a SWU. They do not give me an upgrade seat unless they couldn't sell it.

ScottC, I share your general sentiment, but here's another way to look at it:
It's hard to say how much it truly "cost" the airline in this case. I suspect that most of these people had no prior plans to visit PV and only went and chose Business Class because of the super-low fare. So for these passengers it's not like the airline "lost out" on the difference between the full rate vs. the $59 fare, because they would not have even bought tickets otherwise. The airline really lost only if the $59 passengers took up seats that it could have sold at full rate to other passengers. Without a crystal ball it's hard to be certain whether or not these seats would have gone out empty otherwise, and if they were going out empty anyway, the airline's only real loss was the difference between the $59 fare and the actual cost to carry an extra passenger (fuel, catering, frequent flier miles, etc.).

I agree the end result has probably been good overall ScottC. I would regard it as a loophole in essence, as unless Ralf happened to have seen it on the BELGIUM website, which was the main target group few would have known. The Swiss site had it up (in German) for a while as Rudi knows, but it disappeared early year. I do not believe it was on any other local site and most certainly not on the Netherlands main site AFAIK.

In short I feel most here who obtained the offer were NOT remotely whom the airline was trying/interested in targeting with the very narrow localised promo. Still, a legal "loophole" that many here took advantage of nonetheless. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

And yes, agree with Rudi, that ralfkrippner is one of the few persons alive who understands how the FD scheme works, and that includes the bulk of their employees. Without his ready assistance most would still be scratching their heads in confusion. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif



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~ Glen ~

Back to Rudi's opening post, this Newbie is in agreement with full sharing. I sometimes
thought that sharing a limited promo/cheap run would mean more competition for the few available seats. Fortunately, I have grown away from such a selfish mindset.

Thanks to all of you original community members. Your guidance and assistance are greatlyl appreciated on a daily basis.

Cheers!

Post. Share. Be nice.

ditto!

Sharing is the very essence of this community (or whatever you feel like calling FT).

Yes there are lurkers (but not all are bad, Hi William http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif). Yes there are FTers who take and never give ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif). And Yes some info posted here can mean that a deal/loophole is pulled/closed.

But whilst all this is happening those who take part with the right mind frame have a great time, learn loads and do gain a lot more. So all in all, a good deal to me.

Thanx a lot for the accolade, you made me flushing... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
It was just luck that I found that KLM promo and of course this is kind of a promo that I would post here again, no doubt.

But what I meant was that if I would discover a loophole that e.g. would make it possible to re-use electronic tickets again and again for checkin without marking them 'used', I would not post that here (as I would have some months ago). Instead I would use other means like a list ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ) to just inform such people I know would not try to sell such an information on ebay and who would share their sources with me, too.

This development really makes me sick, it's just not that family-feeling that I had as I joined a year ago...

But such is life...

One of the most famous expressions ever spoken by an Australian Ralf. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif



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~ Glen ~

Although Ralf was the first person to turn me onto the KLM promotion, I was informed of it a month later by a colleague in Brussels. Therefore I am grateful to Ralf for getting me into it earlier than I would have been otherwise (I was able to shift some already planned flights onto KLM and its partners) but as Rudi stated there were other channels other than FT for doing so (while it was not promoted here with fliers, the IST office was very well aware of the offer by mid-January and was verbally telling people about it, IST was a big Qualiflyer station).

I also agree with Ralf that too many things are showing up in other forums such as Ebay, that really ticks me off. As I said earlier, many things that end up here are imprudent and do nothing more than make offers go away and get miles jerked out of accounts.

A classic example would be the recent 50K Hilton promo. It was great that it got posted, and even more so that apparent FT'er pressure got them to open it up to anyone. What was not cool were the few threads started asking people if they were able to register for both promos or to state that they got both promos. It should be apparent to all why this is so.

I am always amazed at how little the general public knows about genuine ways to get more miles. I think we are a small group, in comparison to the general flying public, so information shared has a limited audience (except that I do share many points with people I know.) I have benefited from what is shared, and I share with the same generosity. I have had people e-mail me with some bonus, or tip that they did not want to share publicly, and although I did not understand the rationale I respected their request. Sometimes these same "tips" showed up by someone else, and whatever the person who shared it with me worried about, I'm not sure actually happened. Each of us might have our own standards of what we would "take advantage of" and what we won't. I'd like to think that we do things with the British definition of "scheme" and not the American definition of "scheme." I have personally benefited greatly from being a member of this board. Thank you. 300K away from lifetime Platinum with AA, thanks to these boards, and something I would never have known existed.

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Ms.DtG

ozstamps: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

And I found another interesting text on this website:

And with some deeper research I found the original text of it, stolen without any scruple from a website called ft.com...:

...One of the most conspicuous of them was Rudi who was member of a gang of 28.000 which cut a swathe of terror through the airliners-country since 1987, booking deeply discounted RTW tickets, burning just one UA SWU for 29.000 miles and gaining millions of bonus nugget miles on their gold-cards. He met with another guy called Randy in a mountain hide-out called the house-of-miles, who fancied himself as Robin Hood who rubbed the rich airliners and helped out his poor ft-gang with tips for free upgrades.
He was shot and beheaded by bounty hunters. - Nope, wrong sentence-, He was honored by the miles-marshals with fancy cards and ever since gets free op upgrades...


[This message has been edited by ralfkrippner (edited 08-05-2002).]

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

"I am personally against exploiting mistakes (like apparently wrong priced offers, typing errors, etc. etc.).

I am all for getting the best official price, the best ratio of personal costs/rewards/services for me (and as many FT colleagues as possible)."

I agree with the above, but I am more apt to let the vender know when a genuine error has been advertised, not take advantage of it. I do this for two reasons: 1) I get something when I do so (tangible from them or a point in fairness) and 2) It is the right thing to do. When a vender makes a material error posting too high a price, it is likely to go unpurchased. All error therefore only cost them money. It is a one way road.

On point, a really good, but real benefit (Hilton point to update e-file, etc) is the kind of stuff that seems very fair and should be posted. If Hilton failed to put the limit on this benefit and someone up dated 10,000 times in a month (or maybe 3 times), that would surely be abusive in my book

Grocery store ventors and many other retailers are an exception. When the grocery store messes up and charges too much I make a stink until they get it changed in their computer. They have benefited by cheating people for ...(hours, days, ?) until it is corrected. It these people had to sell a couple items under the posted price (very rarely happens) it is purely pay back. Scanner are used to save costs associated with check out, and often for the generation of material gain as the expense of buy shoppers. But that is another topic.

I think there are 4 issues with Errors and Loopholes at play here:

Sharing The Info

I think all deals should be published on FlyerTalk to get as broad an audience as possible. I believe "lists" are counter to the community spirit of FlyerTalk. I recognize that many folks are into it just for themselves and would do anything to prevent a company from finding out about an error or closing a loophole. Lists may be good for them. But lists limit the amount of folks that can be made aware of and take advantage of some deals.

What Am I Doing?

Am I taking advantage of an error or jumping on some legit deal? I usually shoot first and ask questions later as the deal may turn out to be legit or honored. But if I went into the deal knowing that it might be an error (as many threads annoucing such deals usually clearly state), then I wouldn't complain if it ended up being an error and I was told they wouldn't honor the error. I don't notify them if I think it's an error, but I also don't hide in the shawdows, crawling about like I know I'm doing something wrong. I also don't alter my normal behaviour in order to deliberatly perpetuate what might be an error. I assume the deal is legit and act normally with respect to dealing with the company.

Should They Close Loopholes?

I think yes. Loopholes are usually unfair to other travelers. Almost always they are unfair to the company. As I take advantage of some loopholes at United, I know full well that I am depriving other 1Ks, Premier Executives and Premiers of legitimate opportunities that they should have. And other times I know that I am getting additional services that United did not intend for me to have. I can rationalize and "justify" my actions in my head any way I want (Oh, this just makes up for the crappy video I had last week), but the fact is I know it isn't right. But loopholes are there and I tend to take advantage of the ones that aren't criminal in my mind.

Should The Companies Be Made Aware Of Loopholes?

Not by me. As Sherlock Holmes once said when asked why he was not notifing the police of some minor crime he stumbled across while investigating a different matter: "I am not retained by the police to supply their deficiencies." But I will say that it's been my surprising experience that most companies are already very aware of that the loopholes exist! Sometimes they don't close them because of the hidden (nonpublished if you will) benefit they provide, other times they don't close them for technical reasons that they don't feel the cost to close them is worth. And still other times they don't really care if a few folks take advantage of the system.

I'll end by saying I don't like "lists" for another reason, especially in regards to error fares and rates. I think they presuppose by their very purpose for being, to keep companies from "finding out" and that the participants know or at least suspect that the deal is in error, and are knowingly, willingly and consciencely trying to perpetuate the error. In other words, I think it's one thing to take advantage of an error (because it may not turn out to be one), but another thing entirely to try to do everything possible to perpetuate that error.

These are just my own opinions and those that allow me to look at myself in the mirror and say I've not crossed the line with my own personal ethical standards.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-05-2002).]

Actually, there will always be at least three camps:

1. those who see the world in black and white,

2. those who see the world in black, white, and various shades of grey in between, and

3. those who see the world in the full spectrum of the rainbow's colours.

In group 1 I see people who believe that the only two options are to broadcast and idea publicly for all the world to see, or to keep it to yourself.

In group 2 I see people who believe there are a limited number of ways to diseminate ideas, mostly based on internet technology.

And in group 3 I see people who are convinced there are a myriad of ways to diseminate information, including well beyond the internet, are not afraid to suggest whacky ways that may or may not work, and are open to trying them.

Also in group 1 I see people who believe that you either publicly broadcast every idea for all the world to see or else you are a greedy person who wants to keep every idea to yourself, leeching off the others while never contributing.

I'm quite frankly astonished by this philosophy -- we have an obligation to post ideas here? To not post any idea is to cheat Randy, FT, or other posters? This seems preposterous and bizarre.
Fairness is a two-way street. I don't think I've ever seen an airline that believes in "fairness". Otherwise, why would they charge some people 10 times or more for essentially the same product -- the seat on a flight. If they see a way to extract more money from a passenger by expoiting the customer's travel constraints, you can be sure they will.
Absolutely!

So it's OK for them to close the loophole as long as you've already benefited, regardless of whether anyone else has? Would you care if they closed the loopholes beforewards?

Let me say this about that: GoldPoints, ValuMags, 4:1, 8:1, maximum transfers, evaporating points.

A nugget of wisdom.

The problem is when people feel the only possible "outcomes" are that FTers get to benefit from and idea or they don't. While those are possible outcomes, other outcomes, or consequences, are actions on the part of the airlines et al to end the/a practice, to attempt to reneg on the "deal" (Mexico Hilton, UA the first time around, GoldPoints), to change the rules for the worse, to tighten up other more generic benefits, and to make them paranoid enough to go looking for other "loopholes" before people can exploit them. I'm sure there are other consequences that I've not yet discovered or thought of.

An essential truth that I fear will be lost on most. Who is the most altruistic? The person who says I want you to publish everything so I can benefit, even though others after me may not? Or the person who says use your best judgement so the largest number of people may benefit, even though I may not?

As am I. But it is very simplistic (too simplistic, in fact) to simply say the best way to acheive this is to broadcast publicly for all the world to see.

Yet by this piece of enigma you infer you're not prepared to share it here. Fair enough, but it seems contrary to previously expressed views.

Now I understand.

I wish I'd said that.

Unless of course the airline acts first to remove your choice. And everyone else's choice as well.

Really? With who? Fters only? The public at large? The airlines?

And all info? Say, what's your credit card number? Perhaps you meant only information that will benefit you?

That's the dark underbelly of this whole premise, isn't it? We all want the information "shared" so we can benefit from it, but when you get down to the essentials, we really mean only information that benefits us, and only shared with our rather large clique, but not the general public, not with the news media and certainly not with the airlines. So what people really mean is "different degrees" of sharing.

So it's OK for you to take advantage of it, but to take steps to allow others to do so is wrong? How is that different from just keeping the "error" to yourself, and not posting it?


Posting. Promoting. Publishing. Sharing.

These are all nice words used throughout this thread to describe the concept. But let me suggest another word, that more accurately describes the process, at least IMO:

EXPOSING.

thank you Ken hAAmer for exposing what many different posters said/posted so far, and what you think of some statements.

Any summarized proposition(from yourself) now, how to deal with the issue at hand now?

An interesting question that I've flip-flopped on a few times.

I'm not a fan of The List and never signed up. I think that runs counter to what FT is about. At the same time I've read a few comments - one in this thread and others in different threads - from folks saying they tip the airlines off to loopholes and then get a reward from the airlines. This really strikes me as unscrupulous if that loophole was discovered through FlyerTalk. It saddens me to think there might be people on the board who are using it to benefit themselves at the expense of the FT community, which by nature has been very giving.

Personally, there are some things that have been posted that I haven't taken advantage of because they strike me as wrong ... but that's one of those ethical decisions best left to each individual to decide. There have no doubt been some I have taken advantage of that others would see as wrong.

One thing I'm definitely against is criticizing those who do post loopholes and errors. At the same time, I also have seen some of the same people who argue for full disclosure not disclose loopholes they find. That's wrong too.

One thing PremEx does sometimes, is post a good tip way down deep in a thread that appears unrelated. I've picked up some good info that way and it doesn't easily tip off company lurkers.

In sum, if some people want to keep their tips to themslves, so be it, but please don't criticize others for trying to be helpful participants in a community that was built around sharing.

The problem in my opinion is the "one size fits all" attitude. It's all or nothing. You either loudly shout publicly every find you make, or you hoard everything you find. No one seems to be ready to make a measured response, based on the qualities of the find.

There are some times when immediate and widespread dissemination makes sense. There are other times when a more leisurely approach is appropriate. And there are some things that just need a more delicate approach.

"The list" was someone's attempt to insure everyone had a better chance to jump on certain items. Some, perhaps many people, however, made what I believe to be childish attacks upon it until the effort was abandoned. But there must be lots of ways to carefully and widely disseminate information without shouting it at full volume.

BTW, I have no desire or need to take advantage of the currently discussed top elite status for $1000 deal. So whether it comes, goes, stays, or disappears, I don't personally have a vested interest. It won't affect me one way or another.

But it may well now disappear thus precluding those who may benefit from it from actually doing so, now that it has been exposed and made vunerable.

Have no doubt -- it is perfectly legal, prefectly doable, perfectly valuable, and perfectly clever. It's also perfectly within the rights of the airlines and alliances to shut it down, which they can easily do with simple, inexpensive and easy-to-implement changes to their tariffs.

thank you all for your opinions (so far), and for the civilized way to express it.

I've read these threads with interest - as I always appreciate seeing how others feel about issues like this. But this one, above, I find particularly interesting.

Many, like ralfkrippner, see the sale of info on Ebay to be a terrible thing. I personally do not. I probably never would sell information, but I tend to believe that the tranfer of something of perceived value, for an agreed upon sum is perfectly acceptable. It seems a win-win, because the buyers get to decide the price, and would undoubtedly never would visit FT and get the info in any other way.

On the other hand: "But what I meant was that if I would discover a loophole that e.g. would make it possible to re-use electronic tickets again and again for checkin without marking them 'used'" seems perfectly acceptable to some. If I understand it correctly, I would consider this to be theft. It is similar to discovering that it is impossible for a given store to catch you shoplifting, so you tell all your friends to rob them blind. If that happened, some ethical person might actually tell the store owner - at risk of being chastised by the others.

All that said, I think that this FT community is a great place for the sharing of information, and also for ethical debates. I'm not in favor of flaming others for having different opinions - but I do think that all should feel free to give their own opinions about "deals and loopholes". I know that I have changed my own mind, and my own behavior after thinking about things that other people have written.

They should also feel free to post or not post their deals and loopholes - without fear of the loophole police.

[This message has been edited by VolleyballFerd (edited 08-05-2002).]

I posted on page one of this thread... To which Ken hAAmer responds:
That is not what I said. Please reread the above. What I said is that it should be shared with as many people as possible. Because it may be legit!!! What I object to is purposefully and knowingly doing everything in your power to make sure the company doesn't become aware of a possible error!

If by "take steps to allow others to do so is wrong?" includes going out of my way to deliberately hide the error from the companies...yes I would think that is wrong. If the steps taken are deliberate actions to keep the error "quiet" just so it's not discovered by the company...yes, I think that is wrong.

Taking part in an activity that deliberately prolongs a possible mistake by taking actions that conspire to keep the suspected mistake from the company, versus just openly publicizing the mistake, are 2 different issues in my mind.

I'm not saying anyone should have to call 'em up and advise them of your suspicions (and you certainly wouldn't if you did think it was legit), but neither do I think you should hide in the shadows about it.

If you sincerely believe that what you are purchasing could be a legitimate rate or even an error that you think they might honor, by all means go ahead and purchase it and spread the news to whomever you can reach!

But if you suspect that it might be an error, to then take deliberate action to "keep it quiet" IMHO, is wrong. Just go about your business as normal. Don't be afraid to talk about it or call the airline and ask for seat assignments or anything out of the ordinary that you would normally do. IMHO.

If I found myself changing my normal activities because I am worrying about "ruining it for others"...this would indicate to me that in my heart of hearts I suspected all along that I was doing something wrong!

In other words, if you feel that the rate is legit, why would you hide out? What does it say when you find yourself hiding out in the dark shadows?

letiole observes: Agree with the first part and Thanks for noticing on the second part. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif And I think the second part somewhat addresses Ken hAAmer's excellent comment: What letiole observes about my and many others posting "style" is an example of a measured response. I don't start posts like "Confirm Now...Use 500 Milers Later" at all. I'm not lookin for Glory here.

But neither do I hold back any info in fear of the airline finding out and closing the loophole by reading about it.

In fact, I personally think there is a greater chance of a FlyerTalk reader "finking" out a loophole, than there is the company finding out by stumbling upon it here.

In the above example, I would fully expect a General Mileage Plus member, a Premier or a Premier Executive to call United and object to this loophole, as it is cheating (I hope no one objects to me using the word "cheating" here) them out of upgrade opportunities much more than it is cheating United out of anything!

Regardless, I can look myself in the mirror just fine everytime a United agent gladly allows the switch (which is within their power), knowing that I'm not only doing it in the light of day, but sharing the info with the community as well.

If they close the loophole, fine. Loopholes probably should be closed to be totally fair to all participants. IMHO.

But until they do, to paraphrase Sherlock...I am not retained by United to supply their deficiencies.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-05-2002).]

Gosh, I've benefited so much from FT and all who've posted, if my research led me to knowledge other FFers might be able to use, I would HAVE to post to pay back even a little of what I have received. There would be no option - my conscious wouldn't allow anything else.

And to prove it,
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum...ML/000038.html

As for Lurkers, those who take but never post, and would hold back any info they, themselves, found, just to selfishly prolong some deal - quite plainly, IMHO, they suck.

As for Lists. I'm all for them. Don't cry just because you weren't invited to the party. And, if part of a List, one agrees to keep close what is being relayed i.e. not post the info. Since I am for Lists, I am for this as well. An agreement is an agreement.




[This message has been edited by lisamcgu (edited 08-05-2002).]

Do people actually think there aren't cliques at FT? That all info might actually be shared with everyone? Amazing thought. I mean, yes, maybe to make it work I have to pretend that it's true, but it won't actually be true.

Meanwhile, I'll just go on, pretending like I belong, posting info I think is useful when people ask about it. I doubt I'll ever find you the latest greatest way to make easy elite level. I haven't ever managed to make such levels myself, not even after reading plenty here on FT. (I just don't have the kind of money and/or travel-heavy job that so many of you have.) But I do know my contributions won't be totally worthless.

I continue to read and post here because I can't possibly ever have enough travel info and I enjoy helping those who I can help. It's enough, really. Plus, the conversation tends to be intelligent and fun, even if it's something in Omni. Hey, yeah, I love a great deal tip or few, but I probably won't get to use most of them.

So I will continue to pretend that no one actually says "That idiot, he doesn't travel very much, what's he doing here, he has nothing of use to me." Or things to that effect. Most people probably don't think such things, and that is what matters.

Rudi,

What a great discussion. I think that information generally should be public. Sometimes however it might be better for the community to actually imply the information instead of outright sharing it. This I think might extend the fun and allow more FTrs to get in. When discussing the loopholes, I think the FT performs the same function in the travel industry as the arbitrageurs do in the financial markets. We simply help to close the loopholes through our actions, so we actually help the companies to work out their glitches while having fun. This is IMHO what we do here. We of course pay our price by investing our time in it, but many of us have fun doing it. Lastly, because we are being observed while observing and sharing information we are creating our own flaw that benefits the airlines and the other travel companies. So the real issue is for how long does a loophole last and how do our actions impact that time frame?