Lisa's loophole above is a classic example of HOW open knowledge sharing develops. She finds and posts something interesting. Someone notices another quirk, and hey presto you may now be 5,000 (or more) CO miles ahead on the deal. As someone who needs 5,000 extra CO miles to lock in an award, I thank her and the others on that thread. (And agree entirely with her sentiments above too. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )



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~ Glen ~

Although I find the posts for bonus miles and other ways of beating the system useful, it seems that the airlines have discovered them as well and will close them down.

That being said, I would rather receive an email from other FTers who could forward information I can use and keep this inside knowledge active. Once something like the Baht Run, Mexican Hat Dance, $25 Sheraton New Orleans nights etc. goes public, it dies ever so quickly before most of us ever get the opportunity.

If you find something I can use, send me an email. I will try to reciprocate when possible as well as I do get information here in Asia not available in the US. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

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If it is such a small world, why have I been on this airplane for more than 12 hours?!?

Vague allusions work for me, too.

So how much do the carriers pay "narcs"?

As one of those (formerly)general public no-knowledge people and lurker but not seller of information, I can attest to the helpfulness of FT (as well as a friend that led me here) in locating deals. For a trip with only 700 actual miles logged, the bonuses put me up to 21K (holy first class seat batman, this stuff works!) For anyone who is a relative newbie such as myself (notice number of postings)if there is anything to fill out in order to get more miles whether or not you qualify, remember "When in doubt, FILL IT OUT". The worst you could get is a declined AMEX card application or some odd email, but the benefits could out weigh those minor inconveniences. I don't have a ton on knowledge on what other benefits are out there but thank GOD my learning curve is is improving by geometric proportions! WOOHOO http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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Ohhhh so THAT'S what First class is!

[This message has been edited by KahunaJax2anywhere (edited 08-06-2002).]

Post it.

If the deal is meant as a promotion, so much the better.

If it is an error, let the laws of economics and ethics apply. The more FF who take advantage of the error increase the cost to the business of making errors. That provides incentive on all sides.

As long as yield management is a practice, such anomolies are likely to occur.

idealflyer wrote:
I'm completely unclear on how something like an email list that everyone is on is really any different than posting directly to the board. Couldn't people on the list be the very ones tipping off airlines for a profit?

As for errors, ethical discussions aside, don't you think the airline or hotels notice this when there's a flood of reservations coming in? That would happen whether it's on the board or on an emailed list. On the errors, what I've noticed from past threads is it tends to be FTers who make reservations and then call the hotel or airline to make sure their reservation will be honored who first tip the corporate folks off that they've got a mistake out there.

Find it
Book it
Post it

You snooze you lose

I've missed many a bargain.. ie.. W Times Sq @ $25 b/c I didn't read the thread, however I've also been able to jump on a few deals as well only b/c I read FT.

Not everyone is going to get these short window promo's/errors or whatever anyway so just let whomever can get them get them..

If you miss it, keep reading FT and another will come along soon enough.

I don't see the big deal

Agree very much with emailman and trojanhorse above.

There seems to be a mixup here. There are longstanding loopholes which many people know about and have been successfully used for years. These are grey areas and continue functioning if attention IS NOT called to them. The RTW that started this thing is an example.

A $0 rate is something else which will generally get stopped eventually if someone posts it or not.

Remember in life something I found out about an elephant and a zebra. After arguing for a while, the elephant said to the zebra: we are wasting our time, you see everything in black and white and I see everything in shades of grey.

I'm all for openly sharing.

But a consequence of the sharing will be that either deals will get rare or redemptions will become harder. When this board first started there were a lot of United 500 mile polls available to all - now all of them seem to be targeted. Me and my wife have got 10K NW miles each in the last 2 years due to the FFF promotions - but redemptions seem to be almost impossible for me despite my Platinum status.

And the Goldpoints Valuemag promotion seemed to have devalued the program - I did not take part in this promotion, but now my points are devalued.

I would appreciate hearing how Randy feels about this.

Yes it will be interesting to see what Randy has to say.

I think it will be interesting because I've never considered Randy's or WebFlyer/InsideFlyer's "philosophy" as having anything to do with loopholes and errors.

His publications and comments are almost always dealing with just maximizing the legit spirit of the program's policies and proceedures. I don't ever recall reading anything about loopholes in the programs, like we discuss regularly here.

Loopholes and errors have mainly been discussed by us in the realm of FlyerTalk, which has a much more limited, and different (read: hardcore) audience, IMHO.

I look at Randy's public persona, and WebFlyer/InsideFlyer as being fairly "conservative" in this regards. With FlyerTalk being the more "radical" branch of the family.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-07-2002).]

There is more a chance of the airlines lurking than being on the list I believe and do not really see how someone could profit by telling the airlines. For every one of us that posts, there has to be about 10 people who prefer not to register and post.

Airlines like banks play by their own rules and many will with little notice, change the rules to their advantage when necessary. Therefore I cheer when the little man gets a little edge or advantage. Like someone once said, a bank will loan you an umbrella when it is sunny and will take it back when it begins raining.


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If it is such a small world, why have I been on this airplane for more than 12 hours?!?

Gee you guys can talk!!
Well I agree with ranles and Premex-I think!!

There have been FTers who've stated on threads previously that they have an arrangement where they get upgrade certs if they tell the airline about loopholes. Also, go back and read the first page of this thread.

Regarding Randy's views, I'm curious too, but wasn't the Pudding Guy caper a great example of exploiting a loophole? I believe Randy was quite impressed, as were most of us. BTW, what's interesting about that one, is while Pudding Guy didn't post about it until after he succeeded in getting the miles, another poster did share early on in one of the many Healthy Choice threads that pudding cups were available for 25 cents each. He didn't post with a thread title that said, "Hey everybody - lifetime AA status for cheap! Here's how." Instead that tip was tucked in a thread. Lots of people read it and commented on it, but no one that I know of had quite the vision (or was willing to take the risk) that Pudding Guy did. I imagine the outcome would have been much different had it all come to our attention with a thread title like I mentioned above. It probably would have been shut down very quickly, especially as Healthy Choice first balked at giving Pudding Guy the miles. Point is ... here's another example of information being shared openly, but in a discreet way that keeps it from being shut down prematurely.






[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 08-07-2002).]

Here, here!! Well said Letiole. The need to loudly advertise some of these ideas is usually just an ego thing.

I'd have to see a comprehensive list of these tricks before I could pass judgement/state an opion.

Just for the record, I don't think Healthy Choice ever balked at giving Pudding Guy his miles, I seem to recall him saying he thought he might have problems and was pleasantly surprised when the certs started arriving after never having heard a thing from HC.

My memory on this could be a little rusty as this conversation took place sometime ago, but from talking to Pudding Guy at a get-together (and I think he posted all this as well), they first told him they never received his package - this though it was large, insured, sent special delivery, etc. (I guess it's open for debate whether that was intentional or not.) Then, when they "found" it (I think he explained he had copies of everything), a company rep called him and, as I recall, said things like, You realize this violates the rules, we're really not supposed to honor this, you took advantage of the situation, etc. I do know it took a bit for them to realize they could make lemoncello out of lemons and embrace him and the positive PR he gave them.

[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 08-07-2002).]

---

Yep!

And also, if ya' recall, can anyone say "Latin Pass?" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

That MM promo was shut down just as fast as the plug could be pulled on their website! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Discretion is the greater part of valor? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

well, in my judgement, the two latest examples: Latin Pass and the 'Pudding Guy'-way worked out for more FylerTalkers by having been published/posted here, before they ended (the Pudding Guy thing didn't end before the initial expiry date, and the Latin Pass thing end only weeks after many FlyerTalkers did profit.

and Randy did (still does?) honour monthly special tips ,so far unpublished' special deals (loopholes?) on his homepage.

some 'oldies' here don't need heavy 'advertising' of loopholes - I agree. But FlyerTalk is joined by many newbies day after day ...

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 08-07-2002).]

Let me say with sincerity that I am thankful for the information I receive from FT.


As far as lists go, I like them if I am on them.

Please note: I will scan my email vigorously this evening to review any possible invitations. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It wasn't possible to do what Pudding Guy did once he posted his story. He didn't tell his story until the date had past for a certain doubling offer, so anyone trying to do what he did after than would have to spend twice the amount of money, assuming they could still find tremendous quantities of the 25-cent puddings and the doubling coupons. But anyone could have done it with the available info on FT prior to PG ever posting had they put two and two together and done a little work on their own.

I think a lot of people, when they figure out a slightly complicated loophole, would hope that people don't outline a step-by-step here revealing in detail all the work they put into figuring this out, but put a little thought and effort into it themselves (just as PG did not put his Latin Pass itinerary here, but gave people the same info he had to work with so they could work for it themselves). As it's sometimes frustrating for FTers to have posters want FTers to work out a miles-intensive RTW itinerary for them without lifting a finger themselves, it can be the same with these types of loopholes.

Buried info, hints as opposed to detailed roadmaps - some of these types of approaches could keep info open and without helping those who are unwilling to help themselves.

While the debate is always fun, in the end it is up to Randy (obviously he could close error and loophole threads if he felt them wrong) and to us individually to do whatever we feel is right. I do hope though that whatever people do, the flames for posting or not posting these things are not tolerated.

[This message has been edited by letiole (edited 08-07-2002).]

Sharing info, (secret?) tips, was the genesis for Flyertalk.

Consider Flyertalk as an educational resource, a traveller's 'think tank'. We find posts such as "Pudding Guy's story", "Latin Pass", Ozstamp's recent RTW+>$1000, and many other tales to be inspirational.

Ozstamp, among many others, benefitted recently from MX's PVR deal and wanted to "pay it forward" with his insight into RTWs. Others disagree with this concept, and want to restrict info for fear of infiltrators.

If we discover travel opportunities, we share them first with our inner circles (family, friends, associates) and eventually post them on FT to enlighten and maybe inspire others to share their insights. If we hoard info, it eventually leaks out and ends up in the WSJ anyway; exposed in such a manner has appeared to be detrimental to FT as a community.

Flyertalk is at its best when we are inspired or we inspire others to optimize our travel experiences. Difficult task for any "list" to emulate.

[This message has been edited by anim8r (edited 08-07-2002).]

Anim8tr,

There is a HUGE difference in something like a price glitch which WILL be corrected in the short run whether it is posted on FT or NOT and drawing HUGE attention to a loophole which many have been using for years and which is known by many.

Allow me to explain. On a RTW, there are literally dozens of "tricks" that can be employed to maximize mileage and/or segments. These are spoken about often especially in the STAR forum. Often the questions posted are things like , "How can I maximize my RTW?", "I managed to get over XXXXX amount of miles on my RTW" etc. They are not essentially, "Look how I can scam/screw the system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

These types of posts generally end in tears for most involved. Discretion is key, as many have noted. More muted titles, and/or burying KEY clues in threads is how FT functions best.

It would seem that many here do not believe there are active lurkers here from the airlines. I personally know without a shadow of a doubt that at least three major airlines monitor this board regularly and act on what is here.

Provocative posts belong to those who invite trouble and that is what we do not need. Often the tone reminds me of a film called "The Castle".

Share, if its an exploit then we just need to be willing to deal with not getting our miles or points as we hope. What I don't like is when someone is clearly expoiting a promo or company and they have no remorse. We frenzy like hungry piranha around a "too good to be true" promo and then whine (though some of us wine http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif) when the company rightly cries foul.

If a "loophole" remains open for any length of time, it is because the cost of closing it is too high. I consider it an error, if the action does not yield the result intended by the program.

Example AMEX used to have a deal with certain airlines for free upgrades. I got the miles of the upgraded class, instead of the class I bought from AMEX. Loophole or intended result? I never bothered to ask....

Life is often filled with comrimise.

So let me be fair to all -

The$59 biz fare - et all.

Call the airline - after posting on FT with a 7 day time limit till dropping the dime. (telling the airline)

THE SECRET LIST:
I'm against them -- unless I get added to them. How does one get on the special list?

One other possibility on the $59 fare:
A few years back a car dealer sold a 3 year old Cadillac for $100. The story came out the sales manager told his assitant to put the ad in the paper for $10,000. Somehow a couple of zeros were dropped. A buyer showed up and walked off with a perfectly good car for $100. It made the local news - print and TV.
Turns out the dealer does this about evey 3 or 4 years to boost PR for the company. That part didn't make the news. My uncle knows the dealership owner.

FINAL WORD:
I thank the people on this site for lots of help. PLATO has been a huge help. FewMiles and his info on the Unofficial AA guide informed me of the PLAT challenge. Now I earn 100% bonus miles on every flight.

I know what seat to ask for because of FT.

So all in all, the work here is good.

Thanks.

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TANSTAAFL - but if you work it right, FF miles comes pretty close.

I think PremEx and others summed it up very well.

Remember: Sharing is caring.

Guess I am in the camp who does not like the "secret list." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

May I add another suggestion: for those of us who can't read Flyertalk 24-7 if you find a great deal -- CALL OR E-MAIL A FRIEND!!! That way you can spread the joy of a good deal. And to make it better - once you deal a tip pass it on to another Friend!

For example:

*I would have ended up like Trojan Horse over the W Times Square $25 a night deal. Someone e-mailed me the Link and details. i was able to sign up before the deal vanished.

*Another good buddy left me a message about the PVD airfare deal. Too bad I didn't get the message in time!

Here's another piece of advice == CHECK YOUR CELL PHONE AND E-MAIL EARLY AND OFTEN!!!

Good discussion here.

I am all for secret lists, forums, etc. Why benefit thsoe who do not contribute at all? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

OK, I'm not really that extreme and generally like to contribute, but anyone who thinks I say everything I know is being mighty naïve.

FewMiles..

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[ FlyerTalkers' Resources on the Web ]
[ Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage ] [ Unofficial oneworld Info Desk ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CFM3RD:
[B]Life is often filled with comrimise.

One other possibility on the $59 fare:
A few years back a car dealer sold a 3 year old Cadillac for $100. The story came out the sales manager told his assitant to put the ad in the paper for $10,000. Somehow a couple of zeros were dropped. A buyer showed up and walked off with a perfectly good car for $100. It made the local news - print and TV.
Turns out the dealer does this about evey 3 or 4 years to boost PR for the company. That part didn't make the news. My uncle knows the dealership owner.
...

send me the dealers name!! If it has been "a few years" since he did that, I want to be the one to get the next $100 Cadillac!!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I was supprized to get the e-mail notification of an upgrade for a trip I was not planning. I called continental since it was a city pair that I do occaisionaly fly and they informed me that it was made by our corporate travel agency (I book on the internet for the extra 1000 miles) I have a co-worker on the opposite coast with the same name - Last week he traveled for the first time and the corporate travel agency booked his ticket under my profile.

In sent the other John Smith an e-mail letting him know he had a suprise comming when he gets to the airport.

Since Mr. Smith and I have the same first and last name an there is no middle initial in my FF account he had no problem receiving the upgrade and I received the miles.

The travel agency figured out what they did wrong and set up a new profile for the other Mr. Smith

The other Mr. Smith is flying again next week and has asked if he can use my FF number again to get the upgrade, and I receive the miles.

What are my risks,the first one was an error by a third party. However he now has my FF # since it prints on the boarding pass

Simple.

If your gonna take stuff from the store why tell the owner.?.

Its not that anyone wants to deny others on FT the pleasure of these great beneifts that other members find, far from it....but passing the info in so much detail needs some thought.

Perfect example, Ozstamp posts in all the detail his plan, by the way...he's way off...
RTW have a limit to the numer of sections, so you would never do what he says..

But lets say it did work...how long would it really last once the airlines see all these tickets coming over the desk..

what people really need to think about is what is the benefit.

The PVR deal the other week was fine, why, well it was only going to last a matter of hours anyway.

So thing like this post away...all for it!.

The more complex ticket issues that has gain need to be thought about.

Secret forums, do they exsit...well thats a secret!.

but sure, some of the members communicate in other ways, why to protect the long term of a loop.

Some people just want the glory of finding the loops and then closing them down for everyone else, same in all walks of life.

Just think about it.!



[This message has been edited by Ferrari (edited 08-08-2002).]

RTW have a limit to the numer of sections, so you would never do what he says..

Star-rtw have no limits of flight segments, only limits of stop-overs ... and a stopover, for international tickets, like rtw-tickets, is defined as a stop of more than 23 hours 59 minutes or the next connecting flight (which could be as long as a week away - some rare routes are only flown once a week) ...

While the Star-rtw ticket I took last time, had a limit of 15 stopovers overall, my ticket showed over 30 segments ( some of those segments, like DEN-COS, I did fly 3 times)...

As I buy (and discuss the rules, and optimize them to my favour together with my local LH-people helping me to do so and laughing) all these rtw tickets from LH themselves in Zürich, I don't see why what we/I post here as tips about rtw-tickets should not be shared with all of you openly. LH knows very well about this, for over 3 years now already (and I share all this tips on this board openly also already for 3 years now!).

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 08-08-2002).]

Oh how the mighty have fallen!.

Rudi, Suggest you check the rules...

Better still try and ticket anything over 90 segments.

Rudi, Suggest you check the rules...

printed leaflet (received from LH's office, Gutenbergstrasse, Zürich, Switzerland) Star Alliance "Round the world" rules, for tickets bought and trips started in Switzerland, version june-2002:
Now I am more than interested in the original stopover/segment rules valid for mighty Ferrari - please.

and Miss Daisy Hischier there (LH Zürich office) confirmed today, that she would be pleased to issue a 91 segments ticket for me, if I do all the planning to not exceed the max.- miles allowed. Miss Hischier likes Sprüngli chocolates and knows already quite a few FlyerTalkers in person (I introduced several FlyerTalkers in person to her, when they did visit me in my home town).

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 08-09-2002).]

These are words to the WISE! I posted earlier on this thread with much enthusiasm about SHARING but, an opportunity came up that very day which changed my mind.

I posted in a way that would insure lots of people would notice and the thread wouldn't just disappear without as many as possible being able to take advantage of a great op.

Unfortunately, I ended up being called a liar (and in a very personal, not so nice way), when FTers beseiged poor little AMTRAK and the deal was stopped before it began.

Of course, I have to chuckle a little at AMTRAK's intro to FT. A GR agent was literally baffled by all the calls they got and blamed Starwood for the leak http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Also, my "provocative" post introduced many to the new AMTRAK forum itself and, also, the posts already there on how to transfer CO miles 1-1 to UA, which it seems some didn't know about, so that did turn out for the best, but still, I am now so much wiser!

Provocative posts belong to those who invite trouble

For me, the most provocativ posts on FT are not those 'agressivly' promoting/featuring/sharing secret or (for the 'old-timer' not so secret) tips - it's those attacking/questioning the caracters of other FlyerTalkers and 'calling names'.

While I didn't do the LatinPass, I do remember the ClickRewards + World Wildlife Fund promo where you could get 120 miles/$$ spent. CR really regretted that promo, as FT'ers jumped in for many tens of thousands of dollars.

And on a more regular basis, people share bonus mile promo codes, the recent special sales on discount J fares by AA/DL, etc...

I think that's what made FT such a valuable resource for so many. Even the hint that there is a "private list" where even better information exists would poison the community by creating an "us vs. them" mentality.