If you look hard enough, you can always find something wrong with a person's paperwork. Again, dont forget that this pilot has no training in law enforcement and ignored a policeman that verified the agent's identity.

I believe in the only logical answer, the pilot had a problem with the agent being an Arab-American. Trust me, if the agent had blonde hair and blue eyes, this never would have happened.

Many goverment employees fly daily on our commercial airlines, your comment about using goverment planes is absurb. The agent was on offical duty and required to be armed.

The president's security detail involves hundreds and at times thousands of people depending on the location. Are you saying that one member of the detail is more valuable than another? The last time that I checked, flying on Air Force One is not a requirement for an agent to be able to protect and save the president's life.

I am shocked that you would put a higher value on any type of goverment employee, when the person's duty is to protect us and put himself in harm's way. Where would you put the members of our armed forces that are fighting in Afganistan, behind police and firemen or ahead of them?

I respect them all!

I don't think Plato90s (fair disclosure: he's my brother) does not respect USSS agents per se but merely stating whom he respects more.

As for whether one member of the detail is possbily more valuable than the another, I would say yes, they are all important but some are more important than others.

I'm of mixed mind. On the one hand, I confess to enjoying seeing the government getting bitten by its own regulations.

On the other and more rational hand, a bunch of other people let the agent get to the plane with a gun, clearly believing (and in these post-9/11 days they must have had good reason to believe) that he was a Secret Service agent.

Now if the pilot truly thought that the agent was not a Secret Service agent despite what airport security told him, then maybe I could sympathize with the pilot. But if the pilot believed that the agent was a Secret Service agent and still didn't want him on the plane, then the pilot is clearly wrong, as the plane is safer with an armed federal law enforcement officer on board than without.

So far nothing I've read suggests that the pilot thought the agent wasn't with the Secret Service. IMHO American Airlines has some explaining to do, unless it wants to argue that its pilot and ground crew didn't believe that the man was with the Secret Service.

I am surely not a government employee, or a moderator or an involved party, but could we keep this thread on track?

vs. value of various people... a bit too heavy for a frequent flyer board.

thanks

Well what about this if the pilot was so concerned that he might have been a fake why in the hell didnt the local police arrest him for cause? CAUSE HE WASNT A FAKE AND HE WAS VOUCHED FOR BY AIRPORT POLICE. SO once again AA screwed up and now I think the entire cabin crew should be fired!
Enough SAID

While people in this thread would send planes and passengers down to the bottom of the ocean for the sake of political correctness, I for one am glad that the discretion to fly or not is still vested in the pilots and crew.

How convenient to judge the pilot in hindsight for failing to use his psychic abilities.

That shoe bomber was let on the plane in the name of political correctness -- how many will die from this kind of thinking?

I hate to repeat myself, but here goes....

The shoe-bomber was cleared by local police in Paris!!!!

And it happened just a couple of days before.

Is it really that incomprehensible that an AA pilot may not have full confidence in the ability of local police to verify that a passenger is "safe" to be on board???

Look, if someone with a Secret Service ID who has already been cleared to carry a weapon on board with him isn't considered safe, then who is?

It's a pretty high standard to hold someone to when you require that in addition to the typical photo ID you require a law enforcement ID and then still say, nah, that's not enough.

YOu guys are all missing the point. The main issue here is that the guy appears to be "Arab-American" or at least of Arab descent.

It's sad that racial profiling has reared its ugly neck. Will most non-white travellers be constantly harrassed for wanting to travel on the airline of their choice?

That probably explains why American is flying nearly empty planes on European/Asian flights. Many Europeans and Asians are avoiding any american airlines.

For one thing, they won't be missing much of the service!

"The shoe-bomber was cleared by local police in Paris!!!!"

HE WAS ALSO CLEARED BY THE PLANES CREW!!!, who, we've been told, are now security experts capable of spotting armed and dangerous arabs. Which is it?

They either are keenly on the lookout using their many years of security training (not likely) or they are denying Secret Service Agents based utterly on race and arrogance and refusal to admit they might have made a mistake.

Having worked with quite a few pilots I can say with great confidence that I find the second scenario FAR more likely.

What AA should've done was apologize, and suspended the Captain for continuing bad judgement. Instead, they've just green-lighted a whole boatload of mini-dictators making decisions based on race and their own arrogance, and never backing down, even when they're wrong.

One wonders when they will deny boarding to an Arab-American Sky Marshal and what their story will be then.

I mean, let's review:

Agent cleared ground security.
Agent filed appropriate forms.
Agent checked quite thoroughly and *ID VERIFIED* (do you seriously thingk they would let him past security WITHOUT checking his ID and paperwork?).

Agent's first flight cancelled.

Agent has to change flights.
Agent redoes paperwork.
Agent again files appropriate paperwork ahead of flight departure time. This requires him to ID himself AGAIN.

Paperwork submitted to pilot. Pilot notices.. gasp! An Arab! with a GUN!

At NO POINT does the pilot come out and say.. "Hey you forgot to dot this "i"."

Agent on plane,
Agent off plane
Agent on plane,
Agent Off plane
Agent on plane,
Agent off plane

AGENTS ID *AGAIN* VERIFIED AS BEING A UNITED STATES SECRET SERVICE AGENT. THIS IS NOW AT *LEAST* THE THIRD TIME.

Agent denied permission to retrieve his own jacket.

Agent misses flight.

Agent sent to another flight.

AGENT DENIED BOARDING ON SECOND FLIGHT AS BEING "SUSPICIOUS".

Agent goes home.

Total things the Agent has done wrong? Zero.
Total Things the Airport has done wrong? Zero.
Total things AA has done wrong?

At least six.

Chance this all would've happened if agent were WASP?

Zero.

So far, one Arab-American FBI agent has been booted, and an Arab-American congressman has also been booted. There are NO reports of WASP police (local OR federal) being booted.
You work the math. I've got no problem flying with an Arab-american of any kind. Apparently some pilots are simply panic stricken and incapable of any thought deeper than "Arab=Terrorist, Run!!!"

They should resign for all our good or go fly cargo away from all those risky people like grandmas who might have Ninja swords in their walkers or infants who's sucker might be a saliva activated thermonuclear anthrax bomb. In short, if you haveen't got the stones to fly with a Secret Service Agent, even if the man has purple hair and green skin, get out of the cockpit. You're a danger by stupidity.

Regards,
-Bouncer-
PS: You may notice that I'm a tad irritated by this. Functionally I see the problem as likely to get worse, as long as pilots have this kind of power without having consequences for abuse of it. hey will end up abusing the authority out of a desire to act as the planes security guard. And that is a poor idea.

Benoit, political correctness had nothing to do with the shoe bomber being allowed on the plane. He was profiled and checked and rechecked. The fact that they did a bad job of it has nothing to do with political correctness unless one feels that all people of Arab ethnicity, or people who could be confused as being of Arab ethnicity based on their looks, should be legitimately refused to board.



[This message has been edited by Mvic (edited 12-31-2001).]

Since joining the FT board I've never posted to a "controversial" topic. Here goes,

I was once in a small city and saw close-up the SS in their duties. They are top-notch. They have amazing technology and are very impressive. Point is: they are *totally* in control. What they say goes. Everyone, absolutely everyone, does what they say.
Now some of this power is bound to go to one's head.
Here is what I imagine was the summarized version of the 1 hour and 15 minutes:
Agent: Do you know [perhaps mild expletive] who I am?
Agent's thoughts: What's happening? I never have to answer anyone else's questions.
Captain: Do you know who I am?

Captain wins.

...go Bouncer, go Bouncer! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

...it's ya birthday, it's ya birthday...!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif

Pardon me...just riffing a bit there, got carried away...

Bouncer, YOU are a MANIAC ("Stripes" riff)...
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

......and you hit the topic & the target spot on, bruddah. Nice job.

------------------
Only one thing endures & that is character.
- Greeley

IMHO, someone needs to start calling the airlines on this BS. The "pliot in command" stuff doesn't exempt you from federal Civil Rights and anit-discrimination laws; Ashcroft even made a public statement to that effect early on. If you throw someone off the plane because you or a crew member merely feel "uncomfortable" with his ethnicity, then you are committing a federal offense. Maybe some pilots need to be personally sued, together with their employers.

I saw those middle-aged. potbellied Arab-american businessmen that were thrown off a plane in Minniapolis merely because an FA didn't like their looks. Well, alot of rednecks are uncomfortable flying with African-americans, too. Too bad. If you can't behave professionally and legally, then maybe you should get a different job.

Well the "plot now thickens" - MSNBC is currently reporting AMR Corp (AA) as follows:

I paraphrase - "denies ejection was due to Agents ethnicity, but rather, "cites difficulties confirming his credentials". Now - no mention of the amazing "paperwork" problem. Now it is "difficulties confirming credentials", after 1-1/4 hours of questioning. It will be interesting to see how far this pony runs.

I'm with Bouncer on this one. Big mistake made; big excuse to CYA; big dis-belief follows; second big excuse (quietly forget about first one). Hmmmmm.......
Stay tuned for the next exciting installment right here at WKPR!
dAAvid -

ps - oh yes, the Capt. has absolute authority as to who flies or not on their a/c. Capt also has to suffer the consequences. The Capt. that bounced the FBI Agent some time ago was suspended by the airline in question.